In what has become the most controversial topic to date here on U.F., the discussion of the new noise ordinance that took effect yesterday, Marcus Garvey Park (a.k.a. Mount Morris Park) is once again front and center. Neighbors in the area have “declared war” against the drum circle that ritually congregates in the park every Saturday afternoon.
According to an informal study conducted by Harlem Fur, the decibel level of the drums depends largely on where the circle sets up in the park. Since the drummers typically set up around the edges of the park, residents of the immediate area are directly impacted by the drums. Interestingly enough, I searched online for some sort of information about residents complaining about drums but came up short.
Most people in the area agree that the drums add to the character of the neighborhood but they admit that they would like to see the drummers limit their drumming to only 2-3 hours per week as opposed to drumming until sundown as they do now. What do you think? Share your thoughts below.
To see Harlem Fur’s “analysis” click over to his site.
Related links:
The City’s beat goes on [NYT]
The Scoop [UF](see comments)
Curbed (see comments)
View from my window [Metroblogging]
Master Drummer Michael Babatunde Olatunji and Malonga Casquelourd
And the beat goes on [Blogging NO]
Dancing in the park [GoGaz]
Enduring Rhythms [Furious]
princesscheddar
September 14, 2007
Touche, Uakari!
Uakari
September 5, 2007
The drummers should be allowed to stay. Many westerners won’t understand how deep the roots for this kind of circle goes. This is not just people making noise. It means community and belonging. It is a lifestyle.
I’m Asian, but I was born and raised in Brasil, where music (especially communal music) is part of the environment, it’s heard on the streets on weekends. People congregate around music. It’s a way not only to relieve stress, but also to bond with others. I practice capoeira angola and have deep respect for these people who keep their traditions going against all odds. Keep it going!
anon
September 5, 2007
Orange Girl-
You make a great point, and you’ve stated it clearly. Just because Maple Court agrees with this new building could just mean they are both wrong. But, i do believe the point Mr. Mindful is getting at is that it has unfairly been turned into a white/black issue. “White people hate drumming and are evil”, etc etc etc. But the Maple Court example proves that in fact there are plenty of black folk who hated living across from all that drumming and didnt hesitate to call the police about it. (or anyone else who would listen)
Fair is fair, and facts are facts…i think just about everyone who lives around that park agrees they dont want it infront of their home.
Does that mean they have a right to insist the drummers move? And do their rights out weigh the rights of the drummers to express themselves? Now THERE is the meat of the debate. And i think it’s in there somewhere that you’ll find a compromise will never be reached, because neither side will ever believe that the others rights outweigh theirs.
divine1906
September 5, 2007
For my money, I think the drummers should stick with the location that was negotiated between some of the drummers, State Senator Perkins and the Parks Dept.
While I can understand the resistance of the faction of drummers that have returned to drumming on Fifth Ave., I think they’ve chosen the wrong battle. There are so many other more important issues to focus and organize around.
As a people of African decent in a community where we’ve been the majority, we have to understand that change is occuring whether we like it or not. The best way to handle change is to recognize it, plan for it and embrace it.
We’re always talking about our humanity in the face of the inhumanity that we’ve experienced over the centuries. Well, this is our chance to put our best foot forward and show we’ve learned the lessons of our history.
The struggle around the drummers is an opportunity to do it. A negotiated site was chosen. All the drummers should embrace that choice and abide by it. That would show a recognition of change, the willingness to embrace our new neighbors and the desire for community.
orange girl
September 5, 2007
ok. so if maple court residents have asked the drummers to move, then i presume your point is that you and your condo residents have the right to ask the drummers to move again. in my opinion neither maple court nor your residence have the right to continue to push these drummers from the park. now that all sides of the park are, for the most part, gentrified, the end result is that the drummers will be “just someone else’s problem” or possibly the extinction of the drumming circle. the “fact” that some members of maple court agree with you does NOT make your case (the continual migration of this drumming circle) just. and by the way, orange girl is different from raheem and cheddar. it’s just like you to think that all “BLACKS” i mean, “bloggers” look, i mean write, alike.
Mindful
September 4, 2007
Because people on this board keep glossing over the FACTS of the situation and keep dwelling in things that are NOT facts. I am not dwelling in opinion.
FACT: The drummers have moved before when residents complained about the noise. From in front of Maple Court on Madison/123rd Street. This is different why? Nobody has addressed this.
FACT: The drummers chose their new location, together with the Parks Department, Bill Perkins and Leslie Wyche.
FACT: Nobody has ever (to my knowledge) said that they want the drumming to stop in the park. But that seems to be where people keep on going.
Those are the FACTS. When the FACTS get ignored and people like Princess Cheddar, Raheem, Orange Girl and all the “anons” (most of whom I’m convinced are actually the same person) start to make accusations, deal in theories and things that don’t make sense and are not at issue, I feel it is important to bring the conversation back to the FACTS. If you, anon, choose not to read this thread, so be it – but I think it is important to keep this conversation grounded in reality and FACT.
anon
September 4, 2007
Mindful (and Joe Q. Harlem to a lesser extent)
Why is is that you feel the need to police these boards and jump on every person who has a contrary opinion to yours? We already know your opinion you’ve voiced it 12 times (probably more i just got tired of counting your posts) on this thread alone. We have heard what you have to say, but some people just dont agree with you. Why can you not handle this and why do you feel the need to convince every single person on this board of how right you are?
Just make your statement and let it stand for itself. Stop repeating yourself and stop innundating every person with a differing opinion than yours.
Mindful
September 3, 2007
Anonymous,
I was appalled by the guy on the NPR story as well. His opinion that the drummers noise is too much is correct, but then he went off on some capitalism tangent that frankly, was odd and out-of-place.
Just as there are apparently several opinions within the drum circle (some who chose the new spot and some who chose to ignore their permit with the parks department and move back to the old spot), there are several opinions within the group of park residents who do not appreciate 9 hours of loud drumming on their doorstep.
Whatever this other guy’s opinion, my opinion is that a compromise is to be had and needs to be found – not because somebody is a “member of some sort of priviledged moneyed class”, but because everybody should be able to enjoy their homes without other people making such loud noise that they cannot.
PS – Princess Cheddar, I was wrong to change your name in my last post. However, I do respectfully disagree with almost everything you’ve posted thus far – there has been a total lack of focus on your part on the facts and an irritating focus on the every rabbit trail you can create.
Anonymous
September 2, 2007
I live in the midwest and just heard an NPR story about this. They interviewed some creep that said this is a capitalist society and whoever has money can do anything they want, that you can’t stop gentrification. I am apalled by this man’s comments. I am amazed that people think they can just buy their way into a community that has been there longer than they will and change things because they are members of some sort of priviledged moneyed class. I hope those drums keep playing, lounder and longer if possible.
Joe Q. Harlem
August 29, 2007
Raheem…
What part of the facts did you not understand? NO ONE is opposed to the dummers playing as long as they want to. Just not directly in front of an apartment building and disturbing the residents for many hours on a Saturday afternoon and evening.
PLEASE, let the drummers continue to play IN THE CENTER of the park where everyone can enjoy their music.
And PLEASE let them be considerate of all neighbors in the community.
Reasonable people seem to think that this is a reasonable request.
raheem
August 29, 2007
It’s really very simple: Remove the politics and what do you have?
People who want to practice and continue their culture in their own neighborhood versus people who do not want to allow or participate in the culture of the neighborhood.
When in Rome, do as the Romans do…
Joe Q. Harlem
August 25, 2007
Dearest Princess…
Having sat back and read the back-and-forth banter it is time to weigh in with reality.
The drummers were approached directly for a peaceful and amicable solution. If you had been in the park on that day you would have seen the drummers literally screaming at the people who approached them making it very clear that the drummers would not speak with anyone and that the drummers would not move. They made it very clear that it was their right to play anywhere, anytime and for any duration. Period. Not a very rational or appropriate response in my book.
The parks department eventually got involved and met with a few of the more rational drummers. The DRUMMERS selected their new location behind the amphitheater. It was NOT the Parks Department, it was NOT the residents of the building across the street, it was NOT the politicians. IT WAS THE DRUMMERS. Let me repeat that for those who did not get it the first 15 times — it was the DRUMMERS who selected their new location.
It then became a select group of dissident drummers who decided that they did not like the new location and proceeded to move back to the old location. Period. No thought or consideration of the majority of the drummers or the residents of the community. Correct me if I’m wrong but that’s rude, inconsiderate, and contrary to the agreement that the drummers reached with the Parks Department.
A supporter of the drummers was quoted as saying “This is about respect and consideration”. Where is the drum circles’ respect and consideration for the quality of life of all residents of the neighborhood? Again, a very one-sided mentality from the drummers.
The residents of 2002 Fifth Avenue agree that there is a cultural element to the drumming and appreciate the positive contribution that it brings to the community. But this is a quality of life issue! The residents position has ALWAYS been one of compromise. The residents have been very patient throughout this process.
Let the facts speak for themselves. If we choose to deal with the facts — the real facts — maybe we can all get past this and focus on the greater good of the community.
From communication comes compromise. And from compromise comes contentment and a community that can focus on more important issues. Maybe safety and security in the neighborhood? Maybe an overall quality of life that ALL residents of Harlem are entitled to?
princesscheddar
August 22, 2007
Sorry, Anon, but I just read your comment – after I ha already replied to AC.
The problem is not so much about accommodating anyone else’s wishes – it speaks to the attidude of those who choose not to hear the drumming. Just call the police and have them removed or arrested! No one approached the drummers themselves and respectfully requested a discussion on how to resolve this amicably – not that I know of. This is not the way these complainers operate. They skip the common courtesies and go directly to the last resort.
This just went straight to call the law! Meanwhile, you are (or should be) dealing with PEOPLE who have rights, too, not unlike the new tenants who are throwing their weight around.
princesscheddar
August 22, 2007
Dear AC -
I did not say there were any differences between the Marcus Garvey Park Drum Circle controversy and the Maple Court incident. I am speaking ONLY regarding the Marcus Garvey Drum Circle in particular, and generally about the outdated and overused bullying of those who should have indigenous rights.
Thank you for actually listening, though.
anon
August 22, 2007
and once again we have a poster who conveniently ignores the question of how they feel about the fact that the drum circle moved once before when asked to do so by a building filled with mostly black homeowners.
Princesschedder – AC, who posts on this board often, addressed you with all the respect you’ve requested … but you took mindful’s bait for more running in circles and arguing about arguing. Everyone ignores the inconvenient truth that the drummers have happily and without protest moved before for other residents who live on the park. no one had a problem with it then.
princesschedder – you are one in a long line of posters on this board who have ignored this question when it’s been put to you so im sorry for calling you out. but it seems that everyone who is against the drummers moving at all just does not want to acknowledge any of this.
princesscheddar
August 22, 2007
Did I change YOUR name, Mindless?
Show just a little respect, why don’t you?
Apparently, you have no respect for the culture of the neighborhood you CHOSE to move into, but you will have some respect for me, as a human being, as that is how respect works: you GIVE some, you get some.
And here I had given you the benefit of the doubt…!
princesscheddar
August 22, 2007
Mind you, Mindful, as for sending the children to bed with earplugs, there is a better solution: soundproof your apartment (because, remember, it is YOU who do not want to hear the drums). Or, better yet, put them to bed in a nice, quiet, rural neighborhood, where all they will hear is crickets.
princesscheddar
August 22, 2007
Oh, please!
There you go – you’ve said it yourself: the Drum Circle has been attempting to cooperate with those who choose not to hear the drumming for the longest time. When will those of you who choose not to hear it, while you CHOOSE to live in the neighboring residences, be satisfied??
There is an obvious strategy here, one that has been used successfully time and time again.
Try to utilize a touch of common sense and humanity!
“Laws” are made and changed by people – not necessarily in favor of the majority opinion, but in favor of the “decisive” opinion.
The REASONABLE solution is not to move into a neighborhood that you would have to CHANGE to be happy in. Find someplace that you already like, JUST THE WAY IT IS, and move THERE!
Mindful
August 21, 2007
Princessgouda,
No, I actually meant the noise laws that went into effect on July 1, 2007. I’m sure you can find that online too.
And you’re right – I guess I should insist that when my children go to bed, I put earplugs in their toddler ears. That should go just fine.
Oh, and emergency vehicles are exactly the same as a group of people who CHOOSE to locate themselves where their drums will most annoy. Exactly the same. Don’t be ridiculous!
AND FOR THE LAST TIME – there is NO “attempted elimination of the Drum Circle, a FIXTURE in Marcus Garvey Park for over thirty years”. They may have been in Marcus Garvey Park for 30 years, but they certainly haven’t been in a FIXED location. They have moved all over the park (last location at 122nd and Madison). Finding a new location where they can continue to drum to their heart’s content while not disturbing neighbors is REASONABLE to both “sides” of this issue – and your lack of willingness to acknowledge that is sad. And it shows how UNREASONABLE your position is.
ac
August 21, 2007
with all respect princesschedder – i would like to ask you why it’s different now then when the residents of maple court asked the drummers to move and the drummers did move, without question and without protest. why is this different now?
princesscheddar
August 20, 2007
Did you mean this (excerpt from NOISE CODE, DEP,
NEW YORK CITY,
DEPARTMENT OF ENVIROMENTAL PROTECTION,
MARCH 1998)– the key word is NEW:
(6)Where residential noise quality zones (N-I and N-2) presently exhibit noise levels lower than 55 dB(A) no NEW activity in any zone with the exception of new housing or new low occupancy commercial uses shall be permitted to increase the daytime hourly Leq above 55 dB(A) or the nighttime hourly Leq above 45 dB(A), when measured at or referred to an impacted residential property line.
princesscheddar
August 20, 2007
By the way, if your only problem is the “noise” of the drums, that can easily be cured by EARPLUGS!
What do you think people who work at night (and, thus, sleep during the day) do??
If you were looking for the quiet and serenity of rural life (chirping birds and crickets only), why didn’t you move there, as opposed to the inner-city, where there will always be sounds that will disturb you? What will be next? You also live next to a hospital — will you silence the ambulance sirens, too?
princesscheddar
August 20, 2007
You definitely have a right to enjoy your own home. However, if that right infringes on pre-existing neighborhood circumstances and events, then you also have the right, just as you moved into that neighborhood, to MOVE OUT!
I suffer through the sirens and trucks on Second Avenue each and every night (not to mention all day, but you must remember to add the new and re-construction sounds during the daylight hours), but IT GOES WITH THE TERRITORY!
I close the windows and use my air conditioner to block out those sounds – yes, EVERY night.
Unfortunately, I cannot afford to soundproof my apartment, so I have to settle for the next best thing. Obviously, those who have moved into those $400,000 – million-dollar condos can readily afford the soundproofing option — so what’s the problem??
When you moved into your apartment bordering Marcus Garvey Park, you should very well have taken into consideration ALL THAT THE NEIGHBORHOOD INCLUDES!
Just as America was taken over by non-Native Americans and changed to suit the New World intruders’ lifestyle choices, while restricting the Native Americans, the actual people who were BORN in this country, on RESERVATIONS, Harlem is being re-gentrified to the satisfaction of the New Harlemites. This includes the attempted elimination of the Drum Circle, a FIXTURE in Marcus Garvey Park for over thirty years. For example, the supermarkets are now priced far above the original Harlemites’ budgets; there are oh so many new dog parks, but not an equitable number of playgrounds and activities for children, etc., etc.
No, I don’t want what you have and if you don’t want what we have, then you have that right — someplace else!!
Mindful
August 20, 2007
Raheem, I appreciate your words. However, I am not sure what your argument is. Is it that when the drummer move to a different location within the Park (to help protect the rights of everyone), their membership dwindles? Or that they don’t play their drums as well? I’m just not sure what you’re saying. But I know that it CAN’T be that there is some “cultural right” to conduct a drum circle on the benches on the northern end of Marcus Garvey Park. That’s just silly.
I don’t think I’ve shown that I’m fearful of talking about this issue – on the contrary, some other people’s fears of gentrification seem to have come into play, as the undercurrent of this whole issue seems to be less and less about about drumming/noise than it does about gentrification of the neighborhood.
My only issue is the noise. Whether intended or not (and until recently, I would have said “not”), this “vessel” has unified to prevent children from being put down for naps, prevent people from doing work or relaxing within their own homes and prevent the park from being enjoyed by everyone. Your “cultural right to stay rooted” is frankly less important to me than my ACTUAL LEGAL RIGHT to not have the noise generated by the drummers encroach on my rights to do the things I’ve listed above. That said, I welcome finding a location, as the drummers and park people seemed to do back in July, where the drummers can enjoy drumming without causing hardship on others.
If you do not understand that, I must extend an invitation to you for further education of people’s actual legal right to enjoy the use of their homes without noise impinging on those rights (under the new noise laws).
raheem
August 17, 2007
Mindful, it is nomal to fear what you do not know. Let me try a different approach: the continuing relocation of a tree will affect its roots,and create a less stable foundation. Your external stance on previous incidents reveals your lack of understanding of the drum circle as a vessel of unity. With that, I extend an invitation to you for further education of our cultural right to stay rooted.
Mindful
August 16, 2007
Raheem. Silencing the drums is not what anyone wants (as stated over and over and over again). No issues with spirituality, history, etc.
Just want the same courtesy that was shown to Maple Court when the drummers were located at Madison and 123rd Street.
raheem
August 15, 2007
I have lived in several communities and adapted, where the was a Catholic church, there were church bells; where there was a mass and there was chanting. When people move to Harlem adapatation is necessary for co-existence, not assimilation of your perception of noise. The drum circle is spiritual. Our drums represent the spirit of past, present, and future, they will never be silenced.
orange girl
August 14, 2007
i started to write a response, but i believe my comments speak for itself. we disagree. enjoy your home.
Mindful
August 14, 2007
We’ll have to agree to disagree. Under your logic, I could accuse you of racism if Bruce Sprinsteen (or U2 or Metallica) performed on your doorstep for 9 hours each Saturday and you said you had an issue with it. I’d say “it must be their culture/race that she has an issue with – couldn’t possibly be the noise.”
See the problem?
orange girl
August 13, 2007
I am glad that an agreed upon space has been reached. However, I am unconvinced that race/culture does not play a part in this debate. Just because people of African-descent or other institutions may agree with you does not mean that race/racism is absent. I respectfully disagree with you on this particular point.
Mindful
August 10, 2007
Orange Girl,
The Parks Department worked with residents and the drummers to find an agreed upon place for the drummers to play. From what I understand, the drummers, together with the Parks Dept, selected that new spot.
That said, please do not forget that these drummer’s history/culture/etc. is not the reason that they are having problems. It is because they play their instruments in large numbers on somebody’s doorstep. The same would be true if Chinese gong players or Scottish bagpipers did the same thing.
Also, please remember that the drummers have moved to several different locations in the park. Each move was prompted by residents (and I think the hospital in one instance) insisting that they move to preserve their right to quiet within their homes. At no other point was race or culture ever an issue. It is falsely being made an issue here and it has no place in the dicussion on the current issue.
orange girl
August 8, 2007
unfortunately, new residents (and possibly) old residents do not understand that they have moved into a black neighborhood. It is a diverse black neighborhood. New residents would not be having this conversation if they moved into Chinatown, Little Italy, or predominately Jewish neighborhoods, etc., where different forms of cultural expression are welcomed fabrics of the neighborhood. In those non-black spaces, ethnic expression is typically seen as “charming” or “pleasing.” The difference is that these neighborhoods, for the most part, have had the privilege of maintaining their specific cultural expression, often because of institutional racism (read Gilbert Osofsky, Thomas Sugrue, et. al.) While Harlem, a beautiful symbol of the diversity of the African Diaspora for the last 90years or so, cannot (and probably shouldn’t have to) claim one particular ethnic expression (b/c of immigrations patterns, being pushed out from lower Manhattan, etc) new residents do not apply those same cultural sensitivities to Harlem. Basically, they treat Harlem as this universal space where anyone can impose their values, culture and philosophies with no regard for the history and culture that preceded them. I imagine new residents saying to themselves, “I spent $500-900,000 on a dwelling so I have the power to change anything I dislike about a community (from its music to festive funeral marches to the inconvenient cars double-parked on Sunday morning in front of a historic Baptist church). Why don’t those privileged new inhabitants concentrate on influencing Harlem politicians and storefront owners to clean their sidewalks, or create better schools?
I say all this to say. I don’t like the massive, air polluting trucks that pass in front of my door everyday. I don’t like ignorant drivers honking their horns at all times of the night. I hate the fact the obnoxious metro north train runs so frequently by my window. All of these examples, I would argue are cultural expressions/manifestations of large urban centers (not necessarily U.S. centered). And I imagine that some folks would say, “why did you move there?” Or, “you could always move somewhere else.” If people don’t like the drumming, you have options–
1. speak to them respectfully and ask them to stop at a reasonable hour (unlikely but worth a try) if they respond disrespectfully, don’t rationalize it as pulling the race card.
2. leave while they are playing
3. move
4. try to understand what the drumming symbolizes and learn to appreciate it.
5. work with your community board and find an agreed upon place for the drummers to play
6. earplugs
peace and quiet exist within yourself and in westchester, the upper east side and some parts of queens. bon chance.
Jim Bey
July 30, 2007
I apologize for coming into this so late but I have two questions regarding this topic: How is it possible for a minority, new to the neighborhood, to effect change in the cultural landscape of the community overnight, particularly if the community has been enjoying the drummers in this park for over 20 years, and if millions of New Yorkers who live next to elevated trains tolerate the “noise” of passing trains 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, why can’t the “new” residents of Harlem tolerate drumming (which is part of the majority residents cultural and musical heritage) for a couple of hours, one day per week?
harlem proud
July 23, 2007
Harlem Observer-
by perpetuating the stereotypes of black people as criminals you are playing into the hands of hundreds of years of prejudice, oppression and inequality. if you cant defeat people like mindful with debate and persuasion, to fall back on threats based in horrible stereotypes you are part of the problem.
use your mind–and rise up.
HARLEM OBSERVER
July 23, 2007
MINFUL: The drummers are but 1 thing that is the problem in Harlem. Fine you people can move and live(afford) anywhere in the city. i don’t really care, but whites ALWAYS have to change things whereever you go. It;s not like you guys are bringing anything new to the area-maybe free wifi(keep those signals leaking!)and maybe yellow cabs and food delivery. But what else? These new buildings are not designed with community in mind-in fact they are designed for isolation. Will these new buildings allow the neighbirs to use the media rooms being built in some? Hell no! Move to a area and just live. Because of you businesses will close and big stores will come to get your dollars. You guys are getting dicked big time on closing costs. Good for you. why do you think there are so many banks now in Harlem? Not to give long time residents any loans. So don’t act like you don’t know what the fuck is going on in Harlem.LONG LIVE THE PROJECTS!They are Harlem’s last stand against the swarm this is YOU!Projects are taller than your new condo and the people can look right through your window(you don’t believe in shades) I am looking forward to buying your new plasma cheap once you go to Fire Island for the weekend. Oh another benefit – cheap gadgets! Looking for an iphone. Be adventerous walk through the park at dark. Use the glow from the iphone so we can see you.
Mindful
July 20, 2007
“It is horrendous that the drumming that takes place one day a week in the park has been made into an issue and that the newcomers have the audacity to expect that the people who have lived here for many years should negotiate. Prior to the “invasion” whether the people who lived near the park liked the drumming or not, it was tolerated.”
Pearl, Pearl, Pearl … this has been hashed and rehashed on this board, but now you’re just being incendiary. See post #106 above. The facts just don’t support your claims – the drummers have not been “tolerated” in the past as evidenced by them being moved by the residents of Maple Court. The great thing is that now the drummers have a more secure deal with the Parks Department and a real place to be – which is great, because if the new noise law was enforced, they’d have to stop altogether. Let’s move on, folks…
Pearl
July 20, 2007
one last thing on this issue. The title of the blog, “Drumming up Trouble” represents a thought pattern of blaming someone for something and insinuates that someone has done something wrong!
Pearl
July 20, 2007
The bottom line in this discussion is that there should be no discussion. For those of you who don’t know, the community of Harlem for many years was allowed to become more and more deteriorated. If you talk to any upwardly mobile African American professionals they will inform you that years ago they had to leave Harlem in order to live in better surroundings. Had Harlem been developed back then (20 years ago) the way it is now many of them would have stayed. So please, do not think that you are coming into Harlem to save us poor savages! Please don’t think that you are providing us with a service! The utter arrogance! In addition, African Americans have endured over 500 years of violent oppression which has manifested itself in a variety of forms, economic disenfranchisement being one of them. The results of the Civil Rights Movement did not alleviate all of the damage that was done. We have not received on penny in reparations and still do receive any real respect as far as I am concerned. It is horrendous that the drumming that takes place one day a week in the park has been made into an issue and that the newcomers have the audacity to expect that the people who have lived here for many years should negotiate. Prior to the “invasion” whether the people who lived near the park liked the drumming or not, it was tolerated. Oh, but you with your “manifest destiny” ideology refuse to tolerate anything that does not match up with your cultural values. Yet, you call yourselves civilized?
Mindful
July 17, 2007
Harlem Observer, you must’ve missed half of my last post. Please read it again and pay attention to point #1. The drummers have moved before – after a building was built across from where they played. So happens that most people who live in that building are black. Again, this was clearly a noise issue, pure and simple.
If you ignore the facts, it’s easier to incite people; I know that and you know that. But let’s not incite people and ignore the facts here. The important thing we should recognize is that there was a compromise agreed to and it seems like a good one for everybody involved. Let’s move on.
HARLEM OBSERVER
July 17, 2007
Take a walk over to the office of the tower on the park of 5th on the park and look at the scale model of the tower that is being built. Now look carefully at the tiny people in the model-Is this a joke on the part of the model builder or was he just relaying what the bulders want. I know that dude Joe holland is behind this tower and it looks hot but little things like this and the constant name changing of the park(look at the blueprints iint the wire basket in the window-its written as Mount Morris Park again!)tell a story that most Harlem residents long time,short time, black , white, asian and latino-the desruction of black culture in Harlem.
HARLEM OBSERVER
July 17, 2007
The drummers were open to suggestions-got verbal promises for benches and a drummers circle plaque and golf cart transport for the seniors who can’t climb up the steps to the landing behind the benches of the amphitheater. when the is an event there, the drummers will climb to the mountai top to the bell tower. Will the buggies take the elders to the top? How about the rickshaws that take potential buyers of the new 5th ave tower? I think the drummers were happy to get what they could. WHITEY WINS AGAIN!!! And just to make sure everyone knew that- there was a white chick drumming in the circle. Welcome to the new Harlem-where condo ownership gives you the right to displace a 30year institution. Maybe Suzy will assimilate the drummer technology like a Borg and start her own circle! Will the 2002 fifth avenue residents call the cop on them? Will they call the cops on the kids in the park? Stay tuned.
Mindful
July 15, 2007
Okay! Two things:
1. I heard that the drummers had actually been moved before. Several years ago, they were closer to Madison Avenue and when Maple Court was built, the majority black owners there had issues with the noise and the drummers moved. Noise issue; not a race issue. Done.
2. A compromise was apparently reached and the drummers moved to a landing on the acropolis near the amphitheater. Seems like a good compromise to me. It has got to be quieter for the people they were across from and those who love their sounds can probably hear them better now.
blue
July 9, 2007
im orange.
as if it fucking matters.
get over it people.
Anonymous
July 9, 2007
#103 – Well said…and I’m not white.
anon
July 9, 2007
Walking home (Harlem) this weekend I was reminded of the drummer situation, playing very loud on the sidewalk was James Brown (Papa’s Got a Brand New Bag). It felt great to be back in Harlem (my home) and hear the liveliness of the street, where else in the city can you turn a block and hear James Brown and loud to boot, makes me glad to have Harlem as my home.
However, would not want this outside my door nine hours a day.
Lets keep Harlem Harlem, but with some consideration.
ps I’m white
Anonymous
July 9, 2007
I’m of the minority and ask this…What do non-minorities do that infringes upon our enjoyment of the community, excluding the drummers situation? Not to say that any one race/ethnic group is responsible for the Harlem renaissance….but since we started seeing a change in the demographics/socio-economic status within the community things have improved….non-minorities don’t bother me one bit. Also, a lot of the non-minorities who have relocated to Harlem are different and many times are the good/rational one’s who defend us in some instances and who are not racist because otherwise they wouldn’t come here. Yes some came to make money and a few may be a bit arrogant but many with whom I’ve spoken to, moved here because they like the environment and see great potential and want to stay and strengthen the community. If we think that we can go on living life with no change we’re just dreaming. Adapt and move forward…become part of the improvement…stand up respectfully when you deem it necessary…remember you might not win all the time but when you voice your opinion in a decent manner, over time people will begin to listen more and more. Let’s not forget what Harlem was like a few years ago….we have to change people’s perception of Harlem and the people who live here. All I’m saying is remember that when you speak as a minority you represent all of us….so please speak, communicate, and NEGOTIATE, with respect and dignity…you will mold someone’s perception of who minorities are which affects all of us. Don’t just argue in the park…to make anything happen in this world you must negotiate and bring together all parties including political representatives, area residents, the drummers….come on we’re not children…there’s no way that artists(the drummers) who are typically very deep and understanding can’t come together with the new residents and resolve this issue. People are currently dying and facing terrible obstacles throughout the world….this drumming situation is a minor issue that should be resolved lighthartedly with brotherly love.
Pearl
July 8, 2007
The major problem of course is that once again, African Americans are being disrespected and treated as if they have no cultural norms that include traditions with meaning. Unfortunately, we still live in a time of “manifest destiny” as members of the so-called dominant culture feel they have the right to invade and also feel compelled to once again inflict their cultural norms on other people. As I see it, no one can go into any other community in the city and have the gall to think that they can change the cultural norms, why is this so hard to understand when it comes to the African American community? First of all, in all reality, African Americans cannot move into China town, German town or any other ethnic majority community in this entire city least more assume that they have a right to change the cultural fiber. I don’t know where all of this will lead to, but I do say this there is a price to pay for all actions have a subsequent reaction. As the drummers only drum one day out of the week, what is the big damn deal anyway?
j-no
July 8, 2007
“licensed”, “regulated”, “limited”, “managed”. Using the police as personal messengers.
That’s the sense of community and culture of those who only moved to Harlem to cash in on hot real estate bargains, which they will no doubt be selling for a substantial profit in a couple of years. If you want quiet why not move to the Swiss mountains, where you’ll only be disturbed by the occassional sound of a cowbell or alphorn. There’s plenty of good skiing (or was, before global warming caused by your SUV’s destroyed it) and you’ll never have to live in fear of a sea of black faces gathered together under your balcony. And why the hell are you home on a Saturday afternoon anyway? Get out and get soak up some culture and partake of your community! Sorry, I forgot; having a good time is not your idea of a good time.
anon
July 8, 2007
penny you could not be less informed about what is going on. nobody is throwing anybody in jail. the cops go over, say “stop”, the drummers ignore them, the cops leave. that’s about the extent of the “conflict” everyone is so up in arms about. talk about making a mountain out of a molehill.
Penny
July 8, 2007
So let me see if I understand this right…throwing the drummers in jail for drumming in the park is an appropriate consequence for breaking a noise ordinance? I don’t get it? Aren’t the jails crowded enough as it? Do they really need drummers in there taking up space? Do we really need to take time off our jobs to go to jury duty for a case about drummers in the park?
Divine1906
July 7, 2007
*sighing*
So much for reasonable dialogue and compromise.
dreadlocgrl
July 7, 2007
Just like the drummers in Prospect Park on a Sunday. More drummers shall come and make a joyful noise!!!
All you hipsters leave HARLEM NOW!!!
You invade the areas where all African Americans leave and claim your making the neighborhood better all you doing is pushing African American out so you could you live in poorly built condos and raise your rugrats. if you want quiet go to suburbs not HARLEM!!
Harlem Girl
July 7, 2007
Thank you Moderator.
Harlem Girl
July 6, 2007
Moderator:
I posted a comment last night and it doesn’t show up here.
Did I break some posting rule?
{Editor: The Spaminator is a bit too efficient. For some reason your comments went into the spam folder. Fortunately we were able to recover them this time but our spam input is currently in the upward numbers of 2000/day. If your comment doesn’t appear as moderated after you post it let us know ASAP (via email) so we can try to recover it.}
Harlem Girl
July 6, 2007
“If being able to drum all day, every Saturday is all the drummers and their supporters care about (and not using this to fight some lame genterfication issue), then why can’t they rotate around the park weekly? Or why can’t they move more inside the park? Do they care about the drumming or do they just care about the location?”
Staying in one spot allows for consistancy. People interested know where to find the drummers.
I’m thinking they don’t move more inside because of available seating.
Harlem Girl
July 6, 2007
“The drummers need to find a communtiy organization that will allow them to play in their hall/theater”
One aspect of the drumming for some is to “connect with nature”. Drumming outside is ideal.
Some drummers do drum inside during the winter.
Jaime
July 6, 2007
One question, why do bigots even want to live in Harlem?
RM
July 6, 2007
It’s too bad this keeps turing into a race/cultural issue. This is real simple.
Yes, the drummers have been in the park for a long time. However, the drummers have not always been in the same spot. They were once in a different spot and guess what? People complained (not white people either) and they moved.
Where did they move to? Across from an empty lot. Why? We have to assume they choose that spot because it was the one place where it effected the least amount of residents, which means the noise concerns them. Obviously if they set up shop directly next to the little league field where all the kids play every Saturday, I’d be willing to bet people would be none to pleased.
However, that empty lot is not empty anymore. It’s someone’s home. It’s not the drummers fault this happened and it’s not the home owners either. Do the drummers no longer have to care about others?
If being able to drum all day, every Saturday is all the drummers and their supporters care about (and not using this to fight some lame genterfication issue), then why can’t they rotate around the park weekly? Or why can’t they move more inside the park? Do they care about the drumming or do they just care about the location?
Please stop making this a white/black issue. It’s just sad. As a whitey, I love the park. I love the families that come and BBQ there. I love the kids who play on the playground. I’ve sat and watch the kids play basketball and I’ve watch quite a few little league games on the southside. It’s just pathetic to hear someone try to turn this into a slippery slop. First goes the drummers, next we’re back to slavery.
This is simple. This is about not having a 8-hour concert 50-feet from the only two rooms I call home.
Anonymous
July 6, 2007
The drummers need to find a communtiy organization that will allow them to play in their hall/theater and/or that will assist in developing a solution…where are the communtiy organizations that have helped so much and that are responsible for the Harlem reinassance? Please!
Divine1906
July 6, 2007
Black Kingdom – with all do respect, I think you’re way off the mark here. And your rhetoric is outdated to boot.
The Mount Morris Park Community Improvement Association, The Friends of Marcus Garvey Park and others have worked tirelessly over the years to improve the general area around the park as well as conditions in the park.
You sound like these do nothing folks uptown who are “always talking loud, but saying nothing” to quote the late James Brown.
They always have something negative to say about everything and everyone and they think there’s a conspiracy around every corner.
But when you approach these same folks about organizing to be proactive, to do for self, to plan and execute for our future, they won’t lift a finger. They’re too busy doing nothing! That’s why our fate always seems to be left up to someone else or random external forces. Because of nothing activists! (And that’s not an oxymoron).
Harlem is part of Manhattan, New York, the USA and the world. We have to get along with others/new folks just like we’re always asking and demanding for them to get along with us.
The drummers do what they do in a c-o-m-m-u-n-i-t-y. And if you’re really about community and being communal, then its always about compromise. They want to play, fine. People around the park want to enjoy some quiet on their weekend off from work, fine. Get together and work it out.
This issue just didn’t come to the forefront. It’s been around before the condos around the park were built. It’s just that people like you never care about quality of life issues unless you think its “white folks” pushing the agenda.
I took exception to how some people portrayed the drummers and wanted to immediately call the cops on them. But I am for a negotiated resolution to this issue.
Sure, poor folks catch hell and we want to help. But being intolerant will not help them one iota.
As far as who will catch up to who, “ye of little faith”.
Black Kingdom
July 6, 2007
What I am saying Roach Oppesors is:
Money + Power = Racism. And since a vast majority of Black People lack both of these qualities, it is hard to call a black person racist in my book. The system in which we live in is a sugar coated lollipop with feces for a creamy filling.
Modernized slavery/oppression has evolved into what we see documented on the news everyday like the Sean Bell and Katrina Victims.
But the stories like this one are the stories that fall through the loops. Because this tradition for the last thirty means nothing to the Europeans. Not once in any article are the sounds that the Drummers are producing with their drums referred to as music.
Why is that? Does it not seem odd to you that when black people express themselves it is looked upon as noise or ruckus.
Someone on here actually said, why don’t the drummers play for 2 – 3 hours then leave.
Once again, I ask why? Why should their be a time limit on our form of expression. I guess we can’t have to many Black People gathering in one area since the neighborhood is changing.
As the old saying goes “There Goes The Neighborhood”
Black Kingdom
July 6, 2007
After reading a majority of the comments on this page I am more frustrated then when I left my firt comment.
All of these companies/organizations that Divine and several others on here speak of have very little to do with this issue. As a human being can we actually say the turmoil the drummers are going through is fair?
If these so called developers want to do some good for the community, why do they never involve the commnuity in their plans to enhance our COMMUNITY. You can’t get these TOKEN BLACK PEOPLE to speak for the poor/middle income families. There is no way to work within in a system that was not designed to benifit the individuals it is oppressing. Race will always be an issue, their is no such thing as a race card. Europeans have been given a 400 hundred year headstart. We in no way shape or form can catch up to what a European man/woman have been given.
Bigger organizations come in a push out the little people. We always here the that phrase and never pay attention to what it really mean. Why is it the BLACKS have to adjust to everyones else’s living conditions but no one has to adjust to us.
This whole issue is just another example of people in power flexing their power. If you do not believe me, just look at how the topic has been taken in so many directions. Someone stated in a comment: I know of some black people in the community who are tired of hearing the drummers. And then this same person tried to sugar coat the statement with: I know some white neighbors who appreciate the drummers.
If that is so why did this issue not come to the fore front sooner?
Just guessing!!! that maybe because of the lack of respect for Black people no one would have stepped in to handle the the situation. This is only a issue because their are Europeans complaining.
Everyone on hear can sound as professional or diplomatic as they want. But that is not solving the issue at hand.
The only way to solve this issue is too LEAVE THE DRUMMERS ALONE.
Anonymous
July 6, 2007
Things change…and we all know, even from our work experience, that people are resistant to change. The fight against Harlem’s gentrification I guarantee you was expected by the heavy hitters and counter measures implemented to address those anticipated cries….come on people this sort of thing has gone on since the beginning of this great nation, across all geographic areas. The formula is simple: the haves push their way into a neighborhood…then the cry from the have nots…alas the cries wane until they are heard no more….the haves rejoice as they improve and reap the benefits of their new land.
Roach oppressor
July 6, 2007
Black Kingdom: Are you saying that your African ancestors were approached by invaders who asked them if they would consider moving their drum circles a couple hundred yards or limiting their hours so that everyone could enjoy themselves together in relative harmony?
Let’s please keep this in perspective.
Black Kingdom
July 6, 2007
Has anyone taken into consideration that these drummers where drumming in the park when no one wanted anything to do with the PARK/BLACK COMMUNITY as well as AFRICAN CULTURE.
It is a well known fact that the particular area they are drumming in was a prodominantly BLACK COMMUNITY until the OPPRESSORS sorry the Europeons wanted to conquer and claim more land.
Gentrification is a hot topic in Harlem today. But I noticed it way before Bill Clinton brought his ignorant self to Harlem. I do not care how loud the drummers are, if you are not happy then they should move.
After all, Tradition is Tradition right?
Divine can plan the calm roll as he/she wants, but I can assure everyone here that there is not one black person at the helm of any of those organizations to prevent the Europeans from spreading like roaches throughout Harlem since they have abused all the resources on the Upper and Lower East sides.
It is unbelievable that in this day and age we are faced with the trials and tribulations that our ancestors were faced with. Malcolm X once said “There are already enough laws on the law books to protect and american citizen. You only have to create new laws when the person you are dealing with is not regarded as a citizen.
Let’s all see who the laws protect on this issue.
P.S. Please Do Not Tell Me This Is Not A Black And White Thing.
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!IT DEFINITELY IS!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Harlem Girl
July 6, 2007
*Had trouble posting this last night along with my other comments.*
“Do you really think that the Harlem reinassance is due to those who lived in Harlem over the past 15-20 yrs? Come on…wake up and smell the coffee. The poor environment back then seemed self perpetuating with a few good, strong people who stood up and did some very difficult work to improve their community…but those few people were definitely not responsible for what is going on in Harlem today.”
You know what’s interesting about all of these debates, people new to the neighborhood act as if the people who’ve lived here for years have been happy with the condition of the neighborhood.
Everyone is ignoring the fact that the residents of Harlem were/and continue to be (in many cases) treated as second class citizens in this city and country.
Racism and discrimination is a real (especially in housing) and it needs to be acknowledged in these discussions.
Newer members of the neighborhood have the Police Management giving out their personal cell phone numbers to make complaints and the kids that look like the long time residents of the community are being brutalized on a regular basis like the kid was in the video the other day.
Everyone is talking about getting the cops to move the drummers out of the parks when they should be demanding that the murderers who killed a man in a park full of people in broad daylight …. in front of a child is caught.
Since you’re here, and you want to make such an impact on the community, why not do something that will really help more members of the community and not just self-serving actions that will only benefit yourself and a few others?
How about sending your kids to schools in the neighborhood and demanding an adequate education for them along with everyone else in the class instead of sending them to alternative schools in the neighborhood or public/private schools outside of the neighborhood?
How about demanding that the grocery stores provide quality food instead of ordering from Fresh Direct or going outside of the neighborhood to purchase groceries.
There is much that can be done and since it’s clear that the voices of the new are clearly heard above those who’ve been speaking forever, why not speak on their behalf?
I think this would be more welcome than coming in and trying to change that which we long time residents feel doesn’t need to be changed.
#76
July 6, 2007
Divine-We are in total agreement. I hope that’s how things play out and I hope someone steps up and I hope people realize the cops are not going to solve this in a way that makes anyone happy. We’ve all seen how that goes, and it can be very very ugly.
I went away and jumped back on to uptown flavor this morning only to be totally pulled into this thread. It is a facinating read from beginning to end.
I also want to you say to you, Divine, that you’ve done a really wonderful job of staying calm and reasonable in the face of these 70+ comments, and you’ve not run away from this tough discussion. you’ve certainly earned my respect. There are a lot of people on this board pretending to be something they are not, and trying to start trouble, but I think you’ve been a good and true voice of the community, even though no one asked you to be.
Divine1906
July 6, 2007
#76, since I made the “take our drums’ comment, Ill say this. I said it wasn’t a race issue to me. I think its class even more so. Lots of Black folks don’t want a bunch of people banging drums outside of their expensive condos and townhouses.
My point primarily was that the least antagonistic way to deal with the issue was not to have the police swoop down on the drummers and perform mass arrests. That’s a sure way to kick off a potentially explosive situation. It would be much more productive to have intermediaries reach out to the drummers and attempt to reach a reasonable compromise. That way you put the responsibility for resolving this issue on them. If they don’t respond to reason then let the chips fall where they may.
Divine1906
July 6, 2007
#71 , You are about as clueless as some of the rest of these folks. You just have no idea about Harlem’s history for the last ten years, development efforts and how they intersected with a change in the real estate markets.
“negro” = “the need to grow up”.
Mindful
July 6, 2007
Crazy thing is that there are a number of black people who live in that building as well – and the noise drives them crazy too. Not saying that they don’t appreciate the drummers the way others in the community do, but it sure makes it easier to appreciate when it’s in the background (as it is for most of the community) instead of the foreground. And for what it’s worth, the whites I know in the building appreciate the cultural importance, the skill, etc. – but are tired of the noise (it becomes “noise” when you’re forced to listen to it for 9 hours straight) aspect of it.
anon
July 6, 2007
harlem girl– just one exception to your comments: ‘However, since race seem to be the “white elephant in the room” on this website and rarely ever mentioned, I won’t go there.’
RACE IS ALL OVER THIS COMMENT THREAD!!!! it’s being thrown in both directions to divide and tear apart. everyone who is trying to argue their viewpoint is using race as the reason the other side doesnt see it their way (you’re white so you dont get the drumming! you’re black so you cry racism to get around arguing the facts!)
if you read through—even if the words “race” “black” “white” arent used, they are the underlying issue in every post—and my suspicion is race is the entire reason why this is such a huge hot button issue. my understanding is that years ago the drummers were asked to move by a mostly black co-op on another part of the park and i can guarantee you no one said “first thing they did was take away our drums” or “why cant people come to a community and leave things alone and just accept where they moved to”. the drummers moved. but now–it’s a white building-and people in harlem are rightfully concerned about the gentrification so this has become some kind of representation of that movement…
so to say race isnt mentioned, im sorry but i have to disagree.
Harlem Girl
July 6, 2007
“Do you really think that the Harlem reinassance is due to those who lived in Harlem over the past 15-20 yrs? Come on…wake up and smell the coffee. The poor environment back then seemed self perpetuating with a few good, strong people who stood up and did some very difficult work to improve their community…but those few people were definitely not responsible for what is going on in Harlem today.”
You know what’s interesting about all of these debates, people new to the neighborhood act as if the people who’ve lived here for years have been happy with the condition of the neighborhood.
Everyone is ignoring the fact that the residents of Harlem were/and continue to be (in many cases) treated as second class citizens in this city.
Racism and discrimination is a real (especially in housing) and it needs to be acknowledged in these discussions.
Newer members of the neighborhood have the Police Management giving out their personal cell phone numbers to make complaints and the kids that look like the long time residents of the community are being brutalized on a regular basis like the kid was in the video the other day.
Everyone is talking about getting the cops to move the drummers out of the parks when they should be demanding that the murderers who killed a man in a park full of people in broad daylight …. in front of a child is caught.
Since you’re here, and you want to make such an impact on the community, why not do something that will really help more members of the community and not just self-serving actions that will only benefit yourself and a few others?
How about sending your kids to schools in the neighborhood and demanding an adequate education for them along with everyone else in the class instead of sending them to alternative schools in the neighborhood or public/private schools outside of the neighborhood?
How about demanding that the grocery stores provide quality food instead of ordering from Fresh Direct or going outside of the neighborhood to purchase groceries.
There is much that can be done and since it’s clear that the voices of the new are clearly heard above those who’ve been speaking forever, why not speak on their behalf?
I think this would be more welcome than coming in and trying to change that which we long time residents feel doesn’t need to be changed.
Harlem Girl
July 6, 2007
“This is way too funny, the efforts to legitimize the drummers & suggest they’re woven into the fabric of culture? They’re not even a cohesive organization, just a loose rag tag amalgamation of musicians imposing their crap on park goe-ers and the nabe.”
Last comment on the drummers…….at least for now.
It’s extremely arrogant of you to dismiss the cultural practices of others (especially something thats been in practice for hundreds of years by people of color across the world) because it doesn’t fit into your narrow definition of what represents legitimate cultural representation or expression.
I could point to many other traditions that are common to African/African Americans and other people of color that are non-existent in the communities of whites.
However, since race seem to be the “white elephant in the room” on this website and rarely ever mentioned, I won’t go there.
Harlem Girl
July 6, 2007
“The community organizations are involved in some of the lottery sales but that’s a very small portion of residentials sales in the area….and all they do is develop and sell these city owned properties it’s not as if they own these properties. The community organizations in my view were simply middle men/pawns and scrammbeled to get their share….sad but true.”
I agree 1,000%. Nothing more than pawns and they don’t even realize it.
We’ve all heard about some older person swindled out of their home unknowningly we they thought someone was just going to help fix their roof or plumbing…..that’s what happened to Harlem.
“The Powers that Be” gave away/sold Harlem and didn’t realize what they were doing. They thought they were getting “a little help” from the government.
Harlem Girl
July 6, 2007
“Then I ask why it is that most of those broken down townhouses in the area were snatched up by white and/or Jewish owned companies?”
Racism / Redlining
Harlem Girl
July 6, 2007
“I fail to understand how those who were here for so long (longer than me) can now try to take credit for what is going on in Harlem…when Harlem was in need of help for soooo long. And if they are responsible for the change why are they now fighting against the progress they worked for? Also, if they’re heading these multimillion dollar deals how is it that they are getting short changed when they’re the ones in charge?”
My Response:
“Every brother ain’t a brother cause a color”
(Public Enemy, Welcome to the Terrordome)
Anonymous
July 5, 2007
#70: #69 here…by the way I am not white…and my statement was based on what I see. I fail to understand how those who were here for so long (longer than me) can now try to take credit for what is going on in Harlem…when Harlem was in need of help for soooo long. And if they are responsible for the change why are they now fighting against the progress they worked for? Also, if they’re heading these multimillion dollar deals how is it that they are getting short changed when they’re the ones in charge? Then I ask why it is that most of those broken down townhouses in the area were snatched up by white and/or Jewish owned companies? The community organizations are involved in some of the lottery sales but that’s a very small portion of residentials sales in the area….and all they do is develop and sell these city owned properties it’s not as if they own these properties. The community organizations in my view were simply middle men/pawns and scrammbeled to get their share….sad but true.
Divine1906
July 5, 2007
#69, You’re completely in the dark here. Have you ever heard of HCCI?, ADC?, the Harlem Commonwealth Council? HCDC?, The East Harlem Triangle? or the Empowerment Zone? Bill Clinton had nothing to do with it. Things were planned, moving forward and happening long before he was encouraged to locate here.And it wasn’t by Columbia U. either. Get off the all-powerful white man tip.
Everyone who was actually here and involed knows that plans were moving forward for residential and commercial development in tandem with the disposition of city owned land in Harlem for years before Clinton. All that’s happened under Bloomberg is following through on commitments negotiated with previous administrations. Its so arrogant, but typical to believe otherwise.
Have you ever heard of Ibo Balton (may he rest in peace)? He’s probably more responsible for the changes than any other single person.
So take your own advice, wake up, get a clue and stop trying to re-write history.
Anonymous
July 5, 2007
#66 – Do you really think that the Harlem reinassance is due to those who lived in Harlem over the past 15-20 yrs? Come on…wake up and smell the coffee. The poor environment back then seemed self perpetuating with a few good, strong people who stood up and did some very difficult work to improve their community…but those few people were definitely not responsible for what is going on in Harlem today. My guess is that Bill Clinton had something to do with it…he set-up shop on 125th and that’s when everything started happening…from the commercial and residential development to Harlem Hospital receiving $250 million from Bloomberg to build a new wing and upgrade the existing structures. Now, Clinton may have been encouraged to move into the area by Columbia….but was it a bad thing? No, Harlem was in bad shape and anyone who says different is just fooling themselves….Harlem was in need of help.
Divine1906
July 5, 2007
I’ll say this Mindful, I’ve seen new residents settle into Harlem and other established communities and do just fine assuming that they come with an open mind and have some basic respect.
As for how to get things done, please don’t feel you need to do anything my way. I’m speaking based on my own experiences over the years dealing with sticky issues, conflict situations and the local sensitivities involved.
But feel free to go it alone.
Mindful
July 5, 2007
Divine – your post represents a classic Catch-22. On the one hand, you say that the newcomers act a certain way when talking about/pushing for quality of life issues. On the other, you say “let’s see what they’ll contribute now that they’re here.” Seems a very thin wire to cross (if possible at all) to do things the way that YOU think they should be done.
For the record, my post was meant in no way counter to giving full credit and props to those people and organizations who have worked so hard for so long to bring the area to where it is today. But to add, from what I’ve seen, some of the newcomers have been very involved with the community – on the MMPCIA board and going to the Parks meetings, among other things. But I’m sure that just pisses off somebody who thinks that’s not good enough …
Divine1906
July 5, 2007
#65, Your post represents a mindset that I take issue with. Yes, change occurs in a neighborhood over time like it happens everywhere else. That’s just physics. But it when it comes to the quality of life in Harlem, I’m tired of newcomers acting like they’re bringing civilization to the new world.
Harlem is made up of many, many individuals and organizations that have been working for the last 15-20 years to improve the community. Much of what we’re seeing now is the fruits of their labor.
For example, yes there was a women’s correctional facility at the corner of 121st and 5th Avenue. But the point of the spear who actively organized to get it closed was a resident of 121st street with the able support of the block association. She’s a long time Harlemite who actually founded a successful business in Harlem (Turning Heads).
She bravely took it upon herself to video tape the activities of the women living in the facility and then shared the footage with local elected officials and officers at the “2-8″. The final blow came when residents went to Rev. Calvin Butts who used his influence with the former Governor to seal the deal on closing the prison. I never saw a petition during that process, though one may have existed.
The point is that tons of folks have been working on improving Harlem for more than a decade. If anything, newcomers are now reaping some of the benefits of that work. Let’s see what they’ll contribute now that they’re here.
Suggestions on how to deal with the drummers while avoiding a nasty battle have already been made.
Mindful
July 5, 2007
#64, stop being rude. Unless you were born on a reservation, your ancestors came from someplace else too.
#63, it’s kinda a false premise to say that upon moving into a nabe, you have to be willing to accept anything and everything that is there. If I remember correctly, there was a women’s prison where 10 MMPW is now. Can’t tell me that somebody who moved in down the block couldn’t petition to have the thing closed or moved. In fact, that’s what they did and the nabe is better off. Same goes for the methadone clinics all over the place – people want to get those closed/moved. What about the “Ruins” that were an empty shell for so long? Somebody petitioned to make that “better”.
Bottom line: changes happen in a nabe over time. Gotta deal with it in the best way possible for those who cling to what is and those who want some change.
Speaking of facilitating and not calling NYPD, how to do that? Those drummers know already that they disturb people’s peace, but they don’t care. How to facilitate?
Anonymous
July 5, 2007
63,
Based on your comments the drummers should follow the true spirit of Marcus Garvey and GO BACK TO AFRICA. Pease?
Thank You.
Anonymous
July 4, 2007
The fact that the park is renamed MARCUS GARVEY says a lot about what is interwoven and what is not. Marcus Garvey park with African drummers is like peanut butter and jelly. That’s your issue if you didn’t research the community before you moved there. Those drummers didn’t just show up. If I were going purchase some property in a neighborhood I would spent some time there first to get a feel for the area. If you can’t be a facilitator in resolving this without getting the NYPD involved then find someone who will. You will only blow it completely out of proportion. Man up!
Anonymous
July 4, 2007
This is way too funny, the efforts to legitimize the drummers & suggest they’re woven into the fabric of culture? They’re not even a cohesive organization, just a loose rag tag amalgamation of musicians imposing their crap on park goe-ers and the nabe.
They assume entitlement. I walked by 111 CPN North today & Lenox Ave, gateway into Central Park and thought could they drum here just inside the park? Hell No. The well heeled of 111 CPN would make a phone call and the police would serve and protect them.
The community does not have to negotiate, the community is not at the mercy of the drummers. Tax payers that live their and fund the NYPD? They need to call the NYPD and demand service and protection under law, period.
The drummers are at the mercy of the nabe to come to them and appeal. Most of you got it bassackwards. The drummers have no authority, power, nothing. The issue is the NYPD serving the nabe as they would the well heeld of CPN, UES, & UWS.
They should be arrested – ALL of them. Then maybe, just maybe they would see they need to approach the community and work things out – they are at the mercy of the community, they have no rights to bang a drum all day, give me a break.
Most people want to skip right over law, order, civility, and wrap them up in the defense of ethnic culture or some weak crap ass defense, the defense when you know you have no defense.
Let’ be honest, people want the right to annoy others and impose on others and basically sh*t in others nabe, that’s the bottom line.
Harlem Girl
July 4, 2007
From the Landmarks Preservation Committee Website:
(http://www.nyc.gov/html/lpc/html/faqs/faq_meaning.shtml)
“What is a historic district?
A historic district is an area of the city that has been designated by the Landmarks Preservation Commission because it has a special character or a special historical or aesthetic interest which causes it to have a distinct “sense of place.”
Since the Mt. Morris Park area has been designated a historic district, should the drummers be allowed to stay since they are a part of the history and culture of Harlem?
Harlem Girl
July 4, 2007
“Let’s get the MMPCIA to meet with the drummers and work out a compromise.”
Technically, if the MMPCIA does what it’s website says, they should be on the side of the drummers.
From their webisite:
“MMPCIA is a 501 (c) (3) not-for-profit neighborhood preservation organization committed to ensuring the historic character and the revitalization in and around the Mount Morris Park Historic District.”
Harlem Girl
July 4, 2007
New Anon,
I don’t believe their drumming impinges on the rights of others in society.
In regards to the bagpipe example, I ignored it because my comments may have taken this discussion somewhere else.
But since you insist on a response, I feel that bagpipes are no different than drums.
I believe that bagpiping, just as drumming, is a culturally expressive form for creating community within a culture and expressing a musical/cultural artform.
If I moved into a neighborhood that had bagpippers, and the bagpipes annoyed me, I would not try to remove the bagpippers. I would leave the neighborhood.
In regards to where I live, when everyone else on this board stops being anonymous and starts posting their addresses, I will too.
New Anon
July 4, 2007
#51 – It is a much different thing, I’m sure, to visit the drum circle, listen for awhile and then continue about your day than it is to live close to them, always hearing them no matter what you’re trying to do.
Harlem Girl – it is a matter of living in a society. They may not be trying to annoy their neighbors, but they do. Should we give them a gold star for not trying to annoy? In a society, you cannot just do ANYTHING you want if it is going to impinge on the rights of others in that society in a meaningful way. And again, I come back to the bagpiper example (which must be a pretty good example, since nobody has ever responded to it) – there is a lot of culture behind that, and piping away is a means to maintaining the culture and passing it on to their children. But when they come to your doorstep (where was that again? happy to send them) when you’re trying to chill out, sleep, or just go about your daily activities and pipe (I assume that’s what they call “playing the bagpipes”) for 9 hours, you won’t care about their cultural imperatives. You’ll want to puncture their bagpipe. Because they’re stepping on your toes and your rights.
Same thing here. I think most people engaged in this debate DO know that the drum circle is important and even enjoyable to some people. But they’re tired of the audial assault. Which is why the conversation quickly turned to ways of compromise and how to get along.
Joe Q. Harlem
July 4, 2007
I have this very irritating habit of playing devil’s advocate, so here goes…It seems that many people here are for compromise. Let’s get the MMPCIA to meet with the drummers and work out a compromise.
But (and here’s the skeptic in me coming out) why should we assume that the drummers are willing to (A) speak with us, (B)consider our feelings, (C) work out a compromise, when they have given no hint that they are even doing anything disruptive or annoying? Last weekend we watched them argue with the police before driving them away. That’s visible on the video.
And if, by some stroke of luck and lots of wishful thinking, a compromise can be reached, who will make sure that the rotation schedule is adhered to? Is this a temporary fix until they get tired of rotating and revert back to a designated spot?
We’re all open to compromise…But I remain skeptical…Help to convince me otherwise!
Just my 35 cents
July 4, 2007
harlem girl you hit the nail on the head. thank you.
HARLEM OBSERVER
July 4, 2007
Wow! The timing is interesting-start enforcing noise ordinances that never were enforced strongly in Harlem until the “new settlers” started flying in like vultures in Harlem. Notice the name changing verbally (amongst the new settlers) and in print (see the fifth on the park website and blogs of Harlem all over)of Marcus Garvey Park (since 1973) soon the park signs will go. The drummers are a tradition in the park. Maybe the drum sounds seep into the soul (if you have one) and reminds people of the past. Maybe the drums are communicating with the soul of the long time residents of Harlem. Who knows but we all know that once that tower goes up the goal is to clear that park out and commandeer it from the long time residents. You will see pasty bodies lying on the grass drying up in the ultraviolet rays and multiple dog mini parks (already one there) did the dog population increase with the new residents or is that me? Are the dogs for protection or companionship? Anyway the drums need to be protected at all costs. The fines will come soon for the drummers; the barbeque folks will be next. The smell of flesh will irritate the new property owners. Then the basketball courts will be too loud9 can’t those kids just play ball without making so much noise? Soon you are going to need a key to get in the park. You will see a new block and park association. They are already going to all the meetings that somehow do not get advertised. How do they know about these community meetings? Go to one and see a different community. You can’t get a seat past 96th street anymore and soon you will be tripping over another sidewalk café. Defend the drummers. If you don’t they will effectively remove what character Harlem had. The tour buses will at least stop gawking at you on the street because what self respecting European tourist wants to take pictures of someone that looks like them? Hans, I thought Harlem was the Black Mecca of the World? Was. They want that park. It pretty much was promised to the new residents of the Watchtower being built I guess the state of the art cathedral on the ground floor will be sound proof- can’t have gospel music seeping up to the duplexes-or the contract might call for all gospel singing and music will end in the new building. Who knows?
THEY TOOK THE DRUMS AWAY FROM US IN SLAVERY FOR A REASON. NOW HISTORY REPEATS ITSELF. Drums make some feel good and some feel uneasy. Genetic memories of either celebration of culture or some dark, mysterious place. Memories of lands conquered, raped and destroyed or new land gained. Memories of a people kidnapped and torn away from their home or criminals fleeing to a new land to exploit. Drums tell a story. What will this summer’s drums sessions say?
Bring your drum out on Saturday and support the drummers
Harlem Girl
July 4, 2007
From my post in the other thread:
What bothers me about this debate is that people don’t realize the siginficance of the drumming to the drummers and their community.
It’s not something they are doing to annoy their neighbors. It is a very significant part of the culture.
All accross this country there are people in parks drumming on weekends. 8-10 hours a day. It’s a major part of the culture.
Drumming is a major way that people not only stay connected to their community while away from home, but it is a way to maintain the culture and pass it along to their children.
I’d like the people on this board to imagine how they would feel if one of their ethnic/religious/cultural activites were suddenly made illegal.
Not just illegal, but illegal in America.
What does trying to do this say about this country?
Wasn’t this country founded on the idea of religious/cultural freedom?
(I’ll stop here, because I know if I write what else I’m thinking, it will be seen as inflamatory.)
Harlem Girl
July 4, 2007
“Maybe the drummers should meet with area residents (ie. Block Assoc.) and come up with a compromise. For example, coordinate something with the area residents and the tour companies to deliver professional shows at designated dates/times/location…I think this would preserve the art and culture while also ensuring the right of area residents to quiet enjoyment of their homes, park, and community.”
Their drumming is not about entertaining tourists. Yes people are welcome to view the drumming, but you reduce the significance of the drumming within the culture when you suggest making it a tourist attraction.
Uhuru1906
July 3, 2007
#51, Please don’t try to reason with these folks based on history or anything else that you or I may value about Harlem. Their goal is to sanitize the community to the point that they feel they’re living in a northern version of Yorkville or something.
And #49, stop yapping about the Upper Westside. I’ve actually lived there and we had noise and other quality of life issues like just like we do here in Harlem. So save the second class citizen stuff for your therapist.
The tail and dog example is dumb. No one is suggesting that the community kow-tow to the drummers. What community minded folks are calling for is leaving your “turn the cops loose on them” tactic as an absolute last resort. We know from tragic experience how the cops get down once they are turned loose and it could set off a conflagration that would be worse than any noise the drummers are causing now.
Just my 35 cents
July 3, 2007
i was forwarded a link to this discussion. being a former brooklynite who attended school at city college, it is sad to see some of the comments here. i remember growing up and going with my mother to marcus garvey park, prospect park, tompkins park to listen to the drummers. what sticks in my mind was the energy. crowds would gather and it seemed like in the midst of the chaos that was around, that chaos did not exist. i remember conversation that were positive and feeling connected to something that was greater than myself.
this may sound silly to some of you but its part of the harlem i remember. property owners, regardless of color have a right to live comfortably. i think in this instance, there needs to be an understanding and respect for the history of harlem. harlem cant be considered just a piece of property. the people who are still there and probably grew up there along with the ‘traditions’ should not be cast aside just because you new residents shelled out big bucks to live in a ‘diverse’ neighborhood.
it sounds to me that some of you that have posted have no sense of history about yourselves. but you will be the first one running to the next big thing whatever that may be. is it that important to KNOW THE LAW or is it more important to be in a place where if anything happened someone had your back. compromise is the best solution and really should be the only solution.
Peace
July 3, 2007
Please. I think everyone on here (with the exception of those who want to oust the drummers with no regard) have come up with excellent solutions. I think these options should be presented to both the drummers and the leaders of the Mount Morris Association in a joint meeting. I feel in my spirit that if this is handled properly everyone can reach a reasonable solution. We all have to share Harlem now so let’s do our part to be good neighbors to one another.
Anonymous
July 3, 2007
48, bad idea. again, it always comes back to the NYPD enforcing law as they would for UES and UWS citizens, why should Harlemites be any less served and protected?
That’s a serious question that ends the debate. If Harlem is a 2nd class community where violation of law is “wink and nodded, permissable, and okay”, then fine, the drummers will continue to violate law with the aid and tacit support of the NYPD.
However if Harlem NYC Citizens are treated equally to UWS, UES citizens, then law should prevail, no? Let the drummer on their own organize, secure permits, etc. do whatever it takes to practice their expression. The drummers, the law violators are the ones that need to organize, communicate with the community, etc.
The Dummers are not the dog, they are the tail. Never let the Tail wag the Dog, the Dog is the Community. Never get it confused or twisted, the drummers are entitled to nothing, they are the tail and at the mercy of the community. They’re simply “bogart-ing” the community, disrespecting it, and daring anyone to challenging their imposing on your ear drum for 9 hours….
RM
July 3, 2007
Everyone wants a solution…easy.
The drummers can play all day Saturday (9 straight hours), however, each week they must change locations in the park. One week on the North Side (current location), the second week in the east side, then the north side and the 4th week they hang in the west side. It’s a win-win-win. They get to keep playing in the park (on the edges and not in the middle, which would make every resident happy), they can play all day and the residents can have a ‘pretty’ quiet park three out of the four weeks.
If you live on the north side, you know which Saturday the drummers will be on your side. If the drummers would agree to this, then you would have to accept that on ‘your’ Saturday, they’re going to play and you must find something else to do. If you choose to stay home, then no complaining.
As someone who lives right above the drumming, I’d be happy with this, but would they? If being able to play their drums is what’s matters to them, then they should be okay with it.
People need to stop thinking this is a ‘culture’ thing. I’ve spoken to a handful of African-Americans who leave at or near the park and none have a kind word to say about the drummers. However, most do nothing about it because they don’t think the cops are willing to do anything about it. It has nothing to do with culture, race of style of music. They could blast my favorite band out there all day, but after an hour, I would still have enough.
When you live in NYC, where everyone is on top of everybody, you have to think of others. I listen to an IPOD and I listen to it loud. However, when I get on the subway I turn it down because I have to assume not everybody wants to listen to my music.
New Anon
July 3, 2007
Divine, AC, Hugo, Joe Q. and others: The last person to post (Anonymous at 5:06pm) has certain points that I and others on this board agree with, (s)he tends to wrap that valid point in an extra layer of nastiness and intolerance that I (and I think most of the people that have an issue with the drumming) do not agree with and do not condone.
Though it is perhaps easiest to respond to the last poster and attack (rightfully so) the most negative parts of his message, please do not ascribe his comments to the rest of the drum-tired posters on this board. That’s all I wanted to say.
Anonymous
July 3, 2007
That statement in and of itself explains why there hasn’t hasn’t been a channel of communication open with them. What an evil, vile statement to make about human beings who are essentially your neighbors. Look how many negatives you’ve stated…crap, dirty, arrogant…right now YOU sound like the arrogant one. Self assessment does a lot for the spirit, then maybe you can approach them man to man instead of criticizing them on the web.
Anonymous
July 3, 2007
>It’s a matter of showing respect to those drummers as well.
_
No, it’s not a matter of that, they are entitled to NOTHING, are you kidding me? To date they’ve no shown one ounce of concern about how their expression impacts anyone in the park or anyone that dwells in earshot.
Why do they merit and or warrant “respect”? They’re basically a bunch of inconsiderate arrogant people for assuming entitlement to impose their crap in the nabe for 9 hours.
These are not people that ever gave a rat’s ass about the impact on other park go-ers or the nabe. For example, have they ever collectively come together for a “let’s clean up the park” and volunteered together to spend half-a-day cleaning up the place where they sh*t? Seriously, they could have shown themselves to be concerned community members in numerous ways, have they? They could collect donations and give to the community, the dog run on the other side, they could do something, is that too much to ask for?
They’re just citizens like everyone else and are subject to law like all of us. Why in the hell can’t they form a recognized organization and get a permit to play in that amphitheater in the park? Why can’t they do something constructive for the park? for the community?
They don’t care about anyone but themselves, respect, now that’s funny. No one need defer “respect” to that mass collection of arrogant law breakers that have never before given a damn about anything but themselves, let’s be real. If they had a track record of something beyond self interest, another story, guess what, they don’t.
Arrest’em all (and while you’re at it give’em a bath).
NARMER
July 3, 2007
I don’t think the new ordinance refers to the drumming. I believe it is for mechanically produced sound.
Hugo
July 3, 2007
http://uptownflavor.wordpress.com/2007/07/02/the-scoop-moving-in-and-out-of-harlem/#comment-16715
Joe Q. Harlem
July 3, 2007
“People keep posting videos like they are spying on these guys who are out having good clean fun”…
I shot one of those videos and was physically threatened by two people in the crowd. One was sitting on the bench in the yellow shirt, and the other was one of the female drummers. She was very clear that I was “violating the laws of the drum circle” by taking pictures.
How about violating the laws of the city (Local Law 113) that limits the amount of noise above the normal level in public places?
If the drum circle is willing to compromise and move to the center of the park the situation will remedy itself. No, this is not a threat! Just a request of common courtesy to a group that has previously moved from the east side of the park after requests from residents on there.
Marching to beat of their drums
July 3, 2007
People with severe allergies may claim that those pretty flowers are pollution. It’s a matter of showing respect to those drummers as well. People keep posting videos like they are spying on these guys who are out having good clean fun. They are drinking and drugging…they are drumming. Who has taken the time go talk to them like real people? They are criminals…they are men who enjoy drumming. What is the crime in that? You have a quiet, pretty park 6 days a week. Why did this generate a larger response than helping people save their homes or some of the other pressing issues in Harlem? It’s sad really.
New Anon
July 3, 2007
#33: A sense of community and pride in it as well. I don’t know about you, but nowhere else that I have ever lived in this city do I know my neighbors down the street, around the block and several blocks away. Do you know anywhere else where you get a friendly hello from people as you walk around? Not in this city! But I get that all the time here.
Everywhere else, people live in big buildings where you’re lucky to know the people on your hall. Even down in Brooklyn, people keep more to themselves and don’t know who their neighbors are.
That’s what I was writing about above.
Anonymous
July 3, 2007
Quit squabbling and come up with some realistic answers/solutions…what about #24′s suggestion. Let’s keep the discussion to serious suggestions/solutions only.
Drummers see them here
July 3, 2007
#37 – this is beatiful footage, but what’s your point? Are you saying the park is so beautiful six days a week, let’s tolerate all sort of “pollution” on the seventh?
Anonymous
July 3, 2007
Since we are throwing up videos of the park how about this one…let’s see…6 days a week…versus….one day a week.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=FCgP3qAO2IM&mode=related&search=
Drummers see them here
July 3, 2007
Say whatever you want:
black white
culture lack of culture
old neighbors new neieghbors
The bottom line is there are laws in the city, and these laws need to be obeyed. Just like one would expect and hope that there are no killings and drug deals in the park, we should all hope that the law is obeyed for less flagrant offences – such as noise pollution. And here is what the law says:
=========
(1) No person shall make, or cause or allow to be made, unreasonable noise in any park so as to cause public inconvenience, annoyance or harm. Unreasonable noise means any excessive or unusually loud sound that disturbs the peace, comfort or repose of a reasonable person of normal sensitivity or injures or endangers the health or safety of a reasonable person of normal sensitivity, or which causes injury to plant or animal life, or damage to property or business.
====================
Full list of park regulations here:
http://www.nycgovparks.org/sub_about/rules_and_regulations/rr_1-05.html
The police, the park enforcement officers should enforce these regulations
Joe Q. Harlem
July 3, 2007
Can we bear to watch one more video taken from within the park? Listen to the videographer’s voice as he gets closer to the performance to realize how loud it really is.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=_JRbeahyKP8
Drummers see them here
July 3, 2007
Anonymous
July 3, 2007
“what we have in Harlem is a very special thing that nobody else in this City can claim”
_
…well we know it’s not a Whole Foods or Trader Joe’s. Please, what do we have here that nobody else in this City can claim?
New Anon
July 3, 2007
And in all seriousness, I don’t really want you to move either Divine (unless you really do take the drummers with you – they might like meeting the Prospect Park drummers!). As people move into Harlem and make it more diverse (which is supposed to be a good thing), they will bring with them their own ideals and aspirations for Harlem as well – which will obviously have to be assimilated with those of the people who already live here. Neither group of people (which is simplifying it, as somebody who has lived here for 40 years still considers the 20 year resident a “newcomer” who consideres the 5 year resident a “newcomer” and so on) Such is a changing population.
And since I’m one of those people who has been here for a while (but not decades like some of my friends in the nabe), I can attest that the folks already living here want to see certain kinds of changes too – it’s not just “outsiders” or “newcomers” imposing their will. There are many good things happening in Harlem right now – even as we struggle to maintain a unique identity and culture. Let’s face it – even with disagreements about some things – what we have in Harlem is a very special thing that nobody else in this City can claim.
Anonymous
July 3, 2007
Divine, come on bud! You can’t run away from it. Actually I moved from Bed-Stuy for the same reason and it followed me to Harlem. Nowhere left to run. I kind of feel the way you do. You want to see Harlem flourish and have some diversity but you don’t want it to totally obliterate the rich culture of the community. We need folks like you to stand strong and keep a healthy balance of what was good in Harlem and what Harlem can still become.
New Anon…too funny! Seriously, they have their own set of drummers over there. They drum on Sundays in Prospect Park.
New Anon
July 3, 2007
Problem solved!
Divine1906
July 3, 2007
Be glad to.
New Anon
July 3, 2007
Could you take the drummers to Bed Stuy with you?
Divine1906
July 3, 2007
*coming back out of my corner -I know I’ll be spanked*
Wow #25! You’re calling for more police enforcement in the Harlem community. What a novel idea! I’m glad you brought that new idea to the table
This is so filled with irony. When I was a proponent of the development of those town houses (formerly known as the “Ruins”) and condos around Marcus Garvey Park, my activist buddies called me a chump and a sell-out. “No” I said. “It’ll be good for the community to have new folks come in”. “If they move to Harlem its no mystery who’s been here. They’ll understand the history, the culture, the challenges and we’ll work on the problems together…”
What an ass I was.
I’m moving to Bed Stuy.
Moderator
July 3, 2007
If you are new poster, please be patient. You’ll get confirmation that your post went through and it will show up shortly. Thanks.
Anonymous
July 3, 2007
#5 said, “We just need to remember that it’s a public park and everybody should be able to enjoy it”.
It’s not that simple, you mean enjoy it with restrictions, safeguards, and measures seeing how there is a myriad of competing interest. You cannot enjoy the park at the expense of others, period. Certain activities are not appropriate for a small park with home dwellers close by.
Guess what, is it possible your drumming is my noise pollution (to the extreme)? The drummers assume everybody loves their crap as they do, for 9 hours. Not so, my opinion is as valid as theirs, I say they produce total noise pollution and sonic crap.
Congestion, immediately adjacent home dwellers , competing interest. Some people want a little serenity in a public park, shock of all shocks. Yes, you can enjoy the park, but your enjoyments ENDS when it starts to infringe on MY ENJOYMENT, simple enough?
What if my enjoyment is playing with Light, Can I come in the park with strobe lights, disco balls, and portable search lights and conduct my own light show from 9pm to midnight? Why Not? You play with drums, I play with lights, I love lights, creating art with lights, why I think I’ll flash my lights in windows, the same windows your sound waves go through of your drums, what a grand idea.
Again, This would not fly on the UWS, UES, the NYPD must give Harlem dwellers the same level of service and protection they would in more well heeled places, this is the only question, whether or not these drummers violate law is not the issue, it’s a done deal, they violate law, can they please be arrested? They would do it on the UES and UWS, why do Harlem dwellers deserve less policing and police action?
Anonymous
July 3, 2007
Easy people, please. The only thing I would say about those who live in the townhouses around the park is that they are the well heeld (nothing against them)…also, art is subjective and should not be imposed on anyone. Maybe the drummers should meet with area residents (ie. Block Assoc.) and come up with a compromise. For example, coordinate something with the area residents and the tour companies to deliver professional shows at designated dates/times/location…I think this would preserve the art and culture while also ensuring the right of area residents to quiet enjoyment of their homes, park, and community.
New Anon
July 3, 2007
One last jab from Divine before going back to his/her corner.
Well, since I’m just ducked that sucker punch and am still in the middle of the ring, let me see if I understand you correctly: I (and those who have no appreciation for literally being drummed out of their homes each Saturday) just need to “stop being arrogant” and “show some respect”? Even though it is the arrogant drummers who show no respect for the park neighbors and users?
If I understand you correctly, none of the compromises suggested so far have any merit with you? Those who don’t enjoy the drumming just need to shut up and take it? C’mon now. Don’t prove anything – just be what you represent: somebody who is concerned about the situation blowing up. If you truly are concerned about that (instead of somebody who would LOVE to see it happen – ’cause that’s what I’m getting from your messages), offer something up if you don’t like any of the potential compromises you’ve seen so far.
And how about answering my question from the other board: “What would you say if 20 bagpipers parked outside of your residence for 9 hours while you were home each week and practiced their craft?”
Now, I’m now going to find my corner…
Divine1906
July 3, 2007
Now I’m really going back to my corner
Divine1906
July 3, 2007
ac
I hear you louder than you might think. I’m a helluva lot more moderate to conservative on issues of law enforcement and quality of life issues than I come across on this platform. I, like others, get my back up when folks act they just discovered a new territory and want to start throwing their weight around by calling in cops to deal with matters that could be handled differently if they just had some damn respect.
I remember when they called hip-hop noise too.
Anonymous
July 3, 2007
The only thing I would say about those who live in the townhouses around the park is that they are the well heeld (nothing against them)…also, art is subjective and should not be imposed on anyone. Maybe the drummers should meet with area residents (ie. Block Assoc.) and come up with a compromise. For example, coordinate something with the area residents and the tour companies to deliver professional shows at designated dates/times/location…I think this would preserve the art and culture while also ensuring the right of area residents to quiet enjoyment of their homes, park, and community.
Moderator
July 3, 2007
Divine1906
July 3, 2007
I’m going back to my corner as well.
Divine1906
July 3, 2007
#11
I don’t have to show you anything.
As someone who’s worked with the Marcus Garvey Park Conservatory, The Friends of Margus Garvey Park, the NYC Parks Dept. and Local Police Precinct Councils, I’ve got nothing to prove to you.
You be the conciliator, stop being arrogant, show some respect for the community you found when you arrived and maybe you’ll reslove this issue without setting of a showdown.
ac
July 3, 2007
oops. sorry uptown. i posted right after you asked for a return to corners. ignore my last bit!
ac
July 3, 2007
divine-yeah of course i understand the connection, and it’s an issue im torn on cause i’ve always thought the drummers were cool but lke i said yesteray when my mom had to live on top of them (before they moved to their current location) and i had to see her on the verge of tears about it–i sort of started to see it from the other perspective.
and while im always concerned about anything the NYPD does in our community (i got my camera phone on ready like the rest of us) as far as i can tell they havent done anything to even approach the drummers except maybe ask them to politely move and then leave once refused.
the warrens were doing NOTHING wrong except standing up for the human rights of another human being and they were brutally attacked by criminals in uniform…but the drummers are technically breaking the law and now that the new laws are in effect—even more so. so how can you be mad at the police for enforcing an actual law if they do it in a way that is reasonable and respectful?
like i said. im torn. and now i’ve gone and broken my own request to stop talkign about this issue.
Moderator
July 3, 2007
Now that we’ve managed to get the obligatory back and forth flame war out of the way, can we go back to calmly discussing the issue? Maybe it might be a good idea to cool off and come back tomorrow when you have some perspective? Everyone has great points and the thing is that going back and forth like this isn’t going to change anyone’s mind and make them see your viewpoint. Now back to your corners.
I think this issue will resolve itself. Some very interesting suggestions have been made as to how to compromise.
Divine1906
July 3, 2007
ac:
I feel you on your concern, but I think you might be missing the potential connection here. While you may see this drumming issue as a “local” one, what do you think might begin to happen in Harlem as folks constantly call on the police to be more and more agressive in dealing with issues like the drummers and others?
Don’t you think the police will begin to handle us “locally” in exactly the same ways they Handled the Warrens?
ac
July 3, 2007
oh jeez. we’re criticizing each other’s “ilk”…we all know how this story ends.
can i just ask a question? does anyone on this board a)actually know the drummers and have any actual say in where they go and what they do? b) live in the buildings that are upset and calling the police on the drummers? c) work for the police and have any influence on how they react to both parties?
if not–can we get off this subject (and i know i said yesterday i had passion for it) because we are all going at it with each other when really we’re not going to do anything or solve anything cause we’re just 10 people on a freaking message board.
can we have some perspective????
New Anon
July 3, 2007
Divine – I’ll leave my comment to stand on the other board. Bottom line: offer up a solution (any solution) and show yourself to be somebody who wants to resolve conflict, not inflame it. All you’ve done so far is inflame passions and tell me and my “ilk” (nice, conciliator) how wrong we are.
Divine1906
July 3, 2007
Excellent. Then you can go back and see how I responded.
As I said there, in part, you don’t need me to inflame anyone’s passions. How you and your ilk have decided to approach this matter and the language you’re using in doing so is all that’s needed to make this into a powder keg.
You’re doing a great job all on your own.
ac
July 3, 2007
at the risk of incurring the wrath of the board, is it possible to draw our attentions away from this VERY local basically benign story (20 drummers, 100+ residents of one or two buildings) and focus on a story that should have us up in arms. ALL of NYC should be up in arms about this story, and yet, i’ve not heard anything about it up to this point:
Attys Michael Tarif and Evelyn Warren leave 77th Precinct with supporters.
NYPD Brutalize Human Rights Attorney
By Amadi Ajamu
A human rights attorney known for handling cases of police brutality became a victim of police abuse last Thursday evening in Brooklyn. Attorney Michael Tarif Warren and his wife Evelyn, who is also an attorney, were driving along Vanderbilt Ave around 6:00 pm, when they witnessed NYPD officers “kicking and stomping” a handcuffed young black man. The Warrens pulled over to help.
Warren, a high profile attorney who has been practicing law for 28 years, said “We saw a young kid being chased by a horde of policemen across a McDonald’s parking lot. They tackled him and immediately put handcuffs on him. Then Sergeant Talvy, who appeared to be in charge, began kicking him in the head and ribs, and stomping him on the neck.” The other police officers followed suit. “They literally gave this kid a beating which was unconscionable.”
“Not only as people of conscience and moral decency, but as lawyers, we said this is outrageous.” They arrived and stood “more than ten feet away,” he said. Mr. Warren told Sergeant Talvy they were lawyers, and told him to stop and just take the young man to the precinct. In response he said, “Talvy shouted, I don’t give a f**k who you are, get the f**k back in your car!”
They returned to their car, and Mr. Warren began to write down the license plate numbers of the police vehicles as they watched them put the bleeding young man in a car. “Then Talvy comes to my car and viciously attacks me, repeatedly punching me through the window. Shouting, ‘Get out of the car!’ He dragged me out of the car, ripping my shirt and pants. My wife, very upset, asked him why are you doing this? He then punched her in the face.” Both were arrested and taken to the 77th precinct charged with obstruction, disorderly conduct, and resisting arrest.
Michael Tarif Warren, has handled many police misconduct cases in the black community, including the shocking police murder of graffiti artist Michael Stewart, and Yvonne Smallwood, who was beaten to death by police in the Bronx. He also handled the case exonerating the five young black teenagers falsely convicted of raping the white bank executive “Central Park Jogger.”
Quickly, word of the Warrens arrest spread, and several hundred people descended on the 77th Precinct demanding his release. Organizations including the December 12th Movement, 100 Blacks in Law Enforcement Who Care, Malcolm X Grassroots, International Action Center, CEMOTAP, the Muslim community, the Haitian community and many others were present and several media outlets were on hand.
NYC Councilman Charles Barron, Attorneys Roger Wareham, Reginald Haley, and Marisa Benton began negotiating their release with Brooklyn’s top brass, including Community Affairs Chief Douglas Zeigler, Brooklyn Borough Commander Chief Gerald Nelson, and 77th Precinct Executive Officer Michael Marino. At approximately 10:30 PM Evelyn Warren was released with a DAT (desk appearance ticket), Michael Warren was released with a DAT at 11:30 PM.
Councilman Barron and other community activists are demanding Talvy be fired and that Brooklyn District Attorney Charles Hines “drop the charges (against the Warrens) and charge the police.”
Barron further criticized recent NYPD policy of making cops who kill or assault people take Breathalyzer tests for alcohol. “We need to stop the killing. Police who murder and assault us must be charge with crimes and put in jail. That is the only deterrent.”
Evelyn Warren added, “We are professionals, if they do this to us in broad daylight on a crowded street, what do they do in the dark when no one is around? That’s what I’m concerned about. Officer Talvy must go and Police Commissioner Kelly must go, because his policy allows this behavior to continue.”
If charges against them are not dropped, Michael and Evelyn Warren vow to take the case to trial and use it as a community mobilizing and educating tool to fight police brutality.
New Anon
July 3, 2007
Divine – I have the same comment to you in the other thread:
You know, a statement like that is really just meant to inflame passions. I guess it doesn’t really incite the masses to say something that more closely represents the truth in this case, like:
“The first thing we did is move our drums two blocks away so we could keep on drumming…”
or
“The first thing we did is agree to drum for 2 hours instead of the whole day so everybody can enjoy the park…”
sleepless
July 3, 2007
Was anyone else up from midnight to 3am last night involuntarily (not) enjoying the gigantic fireworks going off in west Harlem? I guess the noise laws don’t apply there either.
Divine1906
July 3, 2007
From a PBS series:
“…In America, slaves played drums of all shapes and sizes in the tradition of both eastern and western Africans. The drumbeat not only accompanied chants and dances, but was also used to send messages. By striking and holding the drum in certain ways, drummers could replicate tones of speech almost exactly. Fear of slaves communicating through these uncanny sounds led whites in several regions to outlaw slave drumming…”
…The first they did was take our drums…
Harlemite
July 3, 2007
These guys are playing music on a Saturday in a public park. There’s the comparison to Central Park and “the well heeled” in one of the previous postings. I frequent Central Park all the time and there are musicians speckled all over that park especially around Strawberry Fields. In my opinion, if setting up around the edges of the park are disturbing the immediate residents then they should definetly move inwards into the park to minimize the the distubance for the residents. We just need to remember that it’s a public park and everybody should be able to enjoy it.
Al
July 3, 2007
#3, you are RIGHT ON. That is THE POINT and I wish the NYPD would finally get it together!!
Anonymous
July 3, 2007
If the drummers sat in Central Park and imposed their expression on the community while sitting at the benches in the park on Saturday near Strawberry fields at 72nd & CPW, across the street from the Dakota and the well heeled on the Upper West Side, the police would stop it, period. The same would apply if they played in Central Park adjacent to 5th Ave and the Upper East Side dwellers.
In other words, the NYPD would enforce law, serve & protect the citizens living adjacent to Central Park (the well heeled), do those that dwell adjacent to Mt Morris Park deserve any less service & protection by the NYPD? Isn’t this the real question? And the rest of the conversation simply diversion and static?
Why do Harlem residents not merit and deserve the same service and protection by the NYPD that the NYPD would provide the UWS and UES dwellers?
There are musicians that play in Central Park, it’s licensed and regulated, they are all well positioned away from dwellers and are limited to a couple of hours, not all day. It’s managed & limited public performance by the Park.
Rules, regulations, compromise and co-existing, all necessary when you dwell in a city however I doubt the drummers are willing to be considerate. Up til now they’ve not felt the need to be considerate or self moderated and managed, they just do whatever they want, they’re basically selfish.
I believe they believe they’re above the law, whill play the ethnic card, this will become a battle of ethnic expression & a bunch of other foolywag nonsense.
In the real world for NYC dwellers, there are many cultural, ethnic, and religious traditions & customs that date back HUNDREDS of years that despite that are ILLEGAL in NYC to practice, even in your own private home. Many of these have to do with food, the preparation of it, refrigeration, etc.
But these drummers? I’m willing to guess they feel they are above law based on some foolywag nonsense that does not fly for anyone else. Try to reason with these drummers banging noise for 9 hours and you’re liable in the next instant have it turn into a “Free Mumia Abdul Jamal” protest and rally.
They will use this as a social struggle and plight shoe-horning in gentrification, Mumia, and any other cause of the moment.
It all comes back to one thing, Do Harlem dwellers merit the same level of service and protection from the NYPD, that the NYPD would give to UES and UWS New Yorkers?
You know damn well these clowns (the drummers) could not pull this off imposing their crap on the well heeled, the NYPD would be responsive to those citizens and you can ask questions later, but it would not fly.
Police Services is the issue and do Harlem residents deserve the same service?
Anon
July 3, 2007
The drummers need to go!!!
Peace
July 3, 2007
Harlem is a notoriously lively neighborhood! Anyone who claims they moved to Harlem for the quiet county lifestyle is a liar. Those days left with the Dutch.