Drumming up trouble in the park
In what has become the most controversial topic to date here on U.F., the discussion of the new noise ordinance that took effect yesterday, Marcus Garvey Park (a.k.a. Mount Morris Park) is once again front and center. Neighbors in the area have “declared war” against the drum circle that ritually congregates in the park every Saturday afternoon.
According to an informal study conducted by Harlem Fur, the decibel level of the drums depends largely on where the circle sets up in the park. Since the drummers typically set up around the edges of the park, residents of the immediate area are directly impacted by the drums. Interestingly enough, I searched online for some sort of information about residents complaining about drums but came up short.
Most people in the area agree that the drums add to the character of the neighborhood but they admit that they would like to see the drummers limit their drumming to only 2-3 hours per week as opposed to drumming until sundown as they do now. What do you think? Share your thoughts below.
To see Harlem Fur’s “analysis” click over to his site.
Related links:
The City’s beat goes on [NYT]
The Scoop [UF](see comments)
Curbed (see comments)
View from my window [Metroblogging]
Master Drummer Michael Babatunde Olatunji and Malonga Casquelourd
And the beat goes on [Blogging NO]
Dancing in the park [GoGaz]
Enduring Rhythms [Furious]
Harlem is a notoriously lively neighborhood! Anyone who claims they moved to Harlem for the quiet county lifestyle is a liar. Those days left with the Dutch.
The drummers need to go!!!
If the drummers sat in Central Park and imposed their expression on the community while sitting at the benches in the park on Saturday near Strawberry fields at 72nd & CPW, across the street from the Dakota and the well heeled on the Upper West Side, the police would stop it, period. The same would apply if they played in Central Park adjacent to 5th Ave and the Upper East Side dwellers.
In other words, the NYPD would enforce law, serve & protect the citizens living adjacent to Central Park (the well heeled), do those that dwell adjacent to Mt Morris Park deserve any less service & protection by the NYPD? Isn’t this the real question? And the rest of the conversation simply diversion and static?
Why do Harlem residents not merit and deserve the same service and protection by the NYPD that the NYPD would provide the UWS and UES dwellers?
There are musicians that play in Central Park, it’s licensed and regulated, they are all well positioned away from dwellers and are limited to a couple of hours, not all day. It’s managed & limited public performance by the Park.
Rules, regulations, compromise and co-existing, all necessary when you dwell in a city however I doubt the drummers are willing to be considerate. Up til now they’ve not felt the need to be considerate or self moderated and managed, they just do whatever they want, they’re basically selfish.
I believe they believe they’re above the law, whill play the ethnic card, this will become a battle of ethnic expression & a bunch of other foolywag nonsense.
In the real world for NYC dwellers, there are many cultural, ethnic, and religious traditions & customs that date back HUNDREDS of years that despite that are ILLEGAL in NYC to practice, even in your own private home. Many of these have to do with food, the preparation of it, refrigeration, etc.
But these drummers? I’m willing to guess they feel they are above law based on some foolywag nonsense that does not fly for anyone else. Try to reason with these drummers banging noise for 9 hours and you’re liable in the next instant have it turn into a “Free Mumia Abdul Jamal” protest and rally.
They will use this as a social struggle and plight shoe-horning in gentrification, Mumia, and any other cause of the moment.
It all comes back to one thing, Do Harlem dwellers merit the same level of service and protection from the NYPD, that the NYPD would give to UES and UWS New Yorkers?
You know damn well these clowns (the drummers) could not pull this off imposing their crap on the well heeled, the NYPD would be responsive to those citizens and you can ask questions later, but it would not fly.
Police Services is the issue and do Harlem residents deserve the same service?
#3, you are RIGHT ON. That is THE POINT and I wish the NYPD would finally get it together!!
These guys are playing music on a Saturday in a public park. There’s the comparison to Central Park and “the well heeled” in one of the previous postings. I frequent Central Park all the time and there are musicians speckled all over that park especially around Strawberry Fields. In my opinion, if setting up around the edges of the park are disturbing the immediate residents then they should definetly move inwards into the park to minimize the the distubance for the residents. We just need to remember that it’s a public park and everybody should be able to enjoy it.
From a PBS series:
“…In America, slaves played drums of all shapes and sizes in the tradition of both eastern and western Africans. The drumbeat not only accompanied chants and dances, but was also used to send messages. By striking and holding the drum in certain ways, drummers could replicate tones of speech almost exactly. Fear of slaves communicating through these uncanny sounds led whites in several regions to outlaw slave drumming…”
…The first they did was take our drums…
Was anyone else up from midnight to 3am last night involuntarily (not) enjoying the gigantic fireworks going off in west Harlem? I guess the noise laws don’t apply there either.
Divine - I have the same comment to you in the other thread:
You know, a statement like that is really just meant to inflame passions. I guess it doesn’t really incite the masses to say something that more closely represents the truth in this case, like:
“The first thing we did is move our drums two blocks away so we could keep on drumming…”
or
“The first thing we did is agree to drum for 2 hours instead of the whole day so everybody can enjoy the park…”
at the risk of incurring the wrath of the board, is it possible to draw our attentions away from this VERY local basically benign story (20 drummers, 100+ residents of one or two buildings) and focus on a story that should have us up in arms. ALL of NYC should be up in arms about this story, and yet, i’ve not heard anything about it up to this point:
Attys Michael Tarif and Evelyn Warren leave 77th Precinct with supporters.
NYPD Brutalize Human Rights Attorney
By Amadi Ajamu
A human rights attorney known for handling cases of police brutality became a victim of police abuse last Thursday evening in Brooklyn. Attorney Michael Tarif Warren and his wife Evelyn, who is also an attorney, were driving along Vanderbilt Ave around 6:00 pm, when they witnessed NYPD officers “kicking and stomping” a handcuffed young black man. The Warrens pulled over to help.
Warren, a high profile attorney who has been practicing law for 28 years, said “We saw a young kid being chased by a horde of policemen across a McDonald’s parking lot. They tackled him and immediately put handcuffs on him. Then Sergeant Talvy, who appeared to be in charge, began kicking him in the head and ribs, and stomping him on the neck.” The other police officers followed suit. “They literally gave this kid a beating which was unconscionable.”
“Not only as people of conscience and moral decency, but as lawyers, we said this is outrageous.” They arrived and stood “more than ten feet away,” he said. Mr. Warren told Sergeant Talvy they were lawyers, and told him to stop and just take the young man to the precinct. In response he said, “Talvy shouted, I don’t give a f**k who you are, get the f**k back in your car!”
They returned to their car, and Mr. Warren began to write down the license plate numbers of the police vehicles as they watched them put the bleeding young man in a car. “Then Talvy comes to my car and viciously attacks me, repeatedly punching me through the window. Shouting, ‘Get out of the car!’ He dragged me out of the car, ripping my shirt and pants. My wife, very upset, asked him why are you doing this? He then punched her in the face.” Both were arrested and taken to the 77th precinct charged with obstruction, disorderly conduct, and resisting arrest.
Michael Tarif Warren, has handled many police misconduct cases in the black community, including the shocking police murder of graffiti artist Michael Stewart, and Yvonne Smallwood, who was beaten to death by police in the Bronx. He also handled the case exonerating the five young black teenagers falsely convicted of raping the white bank executive “Central Park Jogger.”
Quickly, word of the Warrens arrest spread, and several hundred people descended on the 77th Precinct demanding his release. Organizations including the December 12th Movement, 100 Blacks in Law Enforcement Who Care, Malcolm X Grassroots, International Action Center, CEMOTAP, the Muslim community, the Haitian community and many others were present and several media outlets were on hand.
NYC Councilman Charles Barron, Attorneys Roger Wareham, Reginald Haley, and Marisa Benton began negotiating their release with Brooklyn’s top brass, including Community Affairs Chief Douglas Zeigler, Brooklyn Borough Commander Chief Gerald Nelson, and 77th Precinct Executive Officer Michael Marino. At approximately 10:30 PM Evelyn Warren was released with a DAT (desk appearance ticket), Michael Warren was released with a DAT at 11:30 PM.
Councilman Barron and other community activists are demanding Talvy be fired and that Brooklyn District Attorney Charles Hines “drop the charges (against the Warrens) and charge the police.”
Barron further criticized recent NYPD policy of making cops who kill or assault people take Breathalyzer tests for alcohol. “We need to stop the killing. Police who murder and assault us must be charge with crimes and put in jail. That is the only deterrent.”
Evelyn Warren added, “We are professionals, if they do this to us in broad daylight on a crowded street, what do they do in the dark when no one is around? That’s what I’m concerned about. Officer Talvy must go and Police Commissioner Kelly must go, because his policy allows this behavior to continue.”
If charges against them are not dropped, Michael and Evelyn Warren vow to take the case to trial and use it as a community mobilizing and educating tool to fight police brutality.
Excellent. Then you can go back and see how I responded.
As I said there, in part, you don’t need me to inflame anyone’s passions. How you and your ilk have decided to approach this matter and the language you’re using in doing so is all that’s needed to make this into a powder keg.
You’re doing a great job all on your own.
Divine - I’ll leave my comment to stand on the other board. Bottom line: offer up a solution (any solution) and show yourself to be somebody who wants to resolve conflict, not inflame it. All you’ve done so far is inflame passions and tell me and my “ilk” (nice, conciliator) how wrong we are.
oh jeez. we’re criticizing each other’s “ilk”…we all know how this story ends.
can i just ask a question? does anyone on this board a)actually know the drummers and have any actual say in where they go and what they do? b) live in the buildings that are upset and calling the police on the drummers? c) work for the police and have any influence on how they react to both parties?
if not–can we get off this subject (and i know i said yesterday i had passion for it) because we are all going at it with each other when really we’re not going to do anything or solve anything cause we’re just 10 people on a freaking message board.
can we have some perspective????
ac:
I feel you on your concern, but I think you might be missing the potential connection here. While you may see this drumming issue as a “local” one, what do you think might begin to happen in Harlem as folks constantly call on the police to be more and more agressive in dealing with issues like the drummers and others?
Don’t you think the police will begin to handle us “locally” in exactly the same ways they Handled the Warrens?
Now that we’ve managed to get the obligatory back and forth flame war out of the way, can we go back to calmly discussing the issue? Maybe it might be a good idea to cool off and come back tomorrow when you have some perspective? Everyone has great points and the thing is that going back and forth like this isn’t going to change anyone’s mind and make them see your viewpoint. Now back to your corners.
I think this issue will resolve itself. Some very interesting suggestions have been made as to how to compromise.
divine-yeah of course i understand the connection, and it’s an issue im torn on cause i’ve always thought the drummers were cool but lke i said yesteray when my mom had to live on top of them (before they moved to their current location) and i had to see her on the verge of tears about it–i sort of started to see it from the other perspective.
and while im always concerned about anything the NYPD does in our community (i got my camera phone on ready like the rest of us) as far as i can tell they havent done anything to even approach the drummers except maybe ask them to politely move and then leave once refused.
the warrens were doing NOTHING wrong except standing up for the human rights of another human being and they were brutally attacked by criminals in uniform…but the drummers are technically breaking the law and now that the new laws are in effect—even more so. so how can you be mad at the police for enforcing an actual law if they do it in a way that is reasonable and respectful?
like i said. im torn. and now i’ve gone and broken my own request to stop talkign about this issue.
oops. sorry uptown. i posted right after you asked for a return to corners. ignore my last bit!
#11
I don’t have to show you anything.
As someone who’s worked with the Marcus Garvey Park Conservatory, The Friends of Margus Garvey Park, the NYC Parks Dept. and Local Police Precinct Councils, I’ve got nothing to prove to you.
You be the conciliator, stop being arrogant, show some respect for the community you found when you arrived and maybe you’ll reslove this issue without setting of a showdown.
I’m going back to my corner as well.
The only thing I would say about those who live in the townhouses around the park is that they are the well heeld (nothing against them)…also, art is subjective and should not be imposed on anyone. Maybe the drummers should meet with area residents (ie. Block Assoc.) and come up with a compromise. For example, coordinate something with the area residents and the tour companies to deliver professional shows at designated dates/times/location…I think this would preserve the art and culture while also ensuring the right of area residents to quiet enjoyment of their homes, park, and community.
ac
I hear you louder than you might think. I’m a helluva lot more moderate to conservative on issues of law enforcement and quality of life issues than I come across on this platform. I, like others, get my back up when folks act they just discovered a new territory and want to start throwing their weight around by calling in cops to deal with matters that could be handled differently if they just had some damn respect.
I remember when they called hip-hop noise too.
Now I’m really going back to my corner
One last jab from Divine before going back to his/her corner.
Well, since I’m just ducked that sucker punch and am still in the middle of the ring, let me see if I understand you correctly: I (and those who have no appreciation for literally being drummed out of their homes each Saturday) just need to “stop being arrogant” and “show some respect”? Even though it is the arrogant drummers who show no respect for the park neighbors and users?
If I understand you correctly, none of the compromises suggested so far have any merit with you? Those who don’t enjoy the drumming just need to shut up and take it? C’mon now. Don’t prove anything - just be what you represent: somebody who is concerned about the situation blowing up. If you truly are concerned about that (instead of somebody who would LOVE to see it happen - ’cause that’s what I’m getting from your messages), offer something up if you don’t like any of the potential compromises you’ve seen so far.
And how about answering my question from the other board: “What would you say if 20 bagpipers parked outside of your residence for 9 hours while you were home each week and practiced their craft?”
Now, I’m now going to find my corner…
Easy people, please. The only thing I would say about those who live in the townhouses around the park is that they are the well heeld (nothing against them)…also, art is subjective and should not be imposed on anyone. Maybe the drummers should meet with area residents (ie. Block Assoc.) and come up with a compromise. For example, coordinate something with the area residents and the tour companies to deliver professional shows at designated dates/times/location…I think this would preserve the art and culture while also ensuring the right of area residents to quiet enjoyment of their homes, park, and community.
#5 said, “We just need to remember that it’s a public park and everybody should be able to enjoy it”.
It’s not that simple, you mean enjoy it with restrictions, safeguards, and measures seeing how there is a myriad of competing interest. You cannot enjoy the park at the expense of others, period. Certain activities are not appropriate for a small park with home dwellers close by.
Guess what, is it possible your drumming is my noise pollution (to the extreme)? The drummers assume everybody loves their crap as they do, for 9 hours. Not so, my opinion is as valid as theirs, I say they produce total noise pollution and sonic crap.
Congestion, immediately adjacent home dwellers , competing interest. Some people want a little serenity in a public park, shock of all shocks. Yes, you can enjoy the park, but your enjoyments ENDS when it starts to infringe on MY ENJOYMENT, simple enough?
What if my enjoyment is playing with Light, Can I come in the park with strobe lights, disco balls, and portable search lights and conduct my own light show from 9pm to midnight? Why Not? You play with drums, I play with lights, I love lights, creating art with lights, why I think I’ll flash my lights in windows, the same windows your sound waves go through of your drums, what a grand idea.
Again, This would not fly on the UWS, UES, the NYPD must give Harlem dwellers the same level of service and protection they would in more well heeled places, this is the only question, whether or not these drummers violate law is not the issue, it’s a done deal, they violate law, can they please be arrested? They would do it on the UES and UWS, why do Harlem dwellers deserve less policing and police action?
If you are new poster, please be patient. You’ll get confirmation that your post went through and it will show up shortly. Thanks.
*coming back out of my corner -I know I’ll be spanked*
Wow #25! You’re calling for more police enforcement in the Harlem community. What a novel idea! I’m glad you brought that new idea to the table
and condos around Marcus Garvey Park, my activist buddies called me a chump and a sell-out. “No” I said. “It’ll be good for the community to have new folks come in”. “If they move to Harlem its no mystery who’s been here. They’ll understand the history, the culture, the challenges and we’ll work on the problems together…”
This is so filled with irony. When I was a proponent of the development of those town houses (formerly known as the “Ruins”
What an ass I was.
I’m moving to Bed Stuy.
Could you take the drummers to Bed Stuy with you?
Be glad to.
Problem solved!
Divine, come on bud! You can’t run away from it. Actually I moved from Bed-Stuy for the same reason and it followed me to Harlem. Nowhere left to run. I kind of feel the way you do. You want to see Harlem flourish and have some diversity but you don’t want it to totally obliterate the rich culture of the community. We need folks like you to stand strong and keep a healthy balance of what was good in Harlem and what Harlem can still become.
New Anon…too funny! Seriously, they have their own set of drummers over there. They drum on Sundays in Prospect Park.
And in all seriousness, I don’t really want you to move either Divine (unless you really do take the drummers with you - they might like meeting the Prospect Park drummers!). As people move into Harlem and make it more diverse (which is supposed to be a good thing), they will bring with them their own ideals and aspirations for Harlem as well - which will obviously have to be assimilated with those of the people who already live here. Neither group of people (which is simplifying it, as somebody who has lived here for 40 years still considers the 20 year resident a “newcomer” who consideres the 5 year resident a “newcomer” and so on) Such is a changing population.
And since I’m one of those people who has been here for a while (but not decades like some of my friends in the nabe), I can attest that the folks already living here want to see certain kinds of changes too - it’s not just “outsiders” or “newcomers” imposing their will. There are many good things happening in Harlem right now - even as we struggle to maintain a unique identity and culture. Let’s face it - even with disagreements about some things - what we have in Harlem is a very special thing that nobody else in this City can claim.
“what we have in Harlem is a very special thing that nobody else in this City can claim”
_
…well we know it’s not a Whole Foods or Trader Joe’s. Please, what do we have here that nobody else in this City can claim?
http://www.youtube.com/v/pJzbBEvs-S4
Can we bear to watch one more video taken from within the park? Listen to the videographer’s voice as he gets closer to the performance to realize how loud it really is.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=_JRbeahyKP8
Say whatever you want:
black white
culture lack of culture
old neighbors new neieghbors
The bottom line is there are laws in the city, and these laws need to be obeyed. Just like one would expect and hope that there are no killings and drug deals in the park, we should all hope that the law is obeyed for less flagrant offences - such as noise pollution. And here is what the law says:
=========
(1) No person shall make, or cause or allow to be made, unreasonable noise in any park so as to cause public inconvenience, annoyance or harm. Unreasonable noise means any excessive or unusually loud sound that disturbs the peace, comfort or repose of a reasonable person of normal sensitivity or injures or endangers the health or safety of a reasonable person of normal sensitivity, or which causes injury to plant or animal life, or damage to property or business.
====================
Full list of park regulations here:
http://www.nycgovparks.org/sub_about/rules_and_regulations/rr_1-05.html
The police, the park enforcement officers should enforce these regulations
Since we are throwing up videos of the park how about this one…let’s see…6 days a week…versus….one day a week.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=FCgP3qAO2IM&mode=related&search=
#37 - this is beatiful footage, but what’s your point? Are you saying the park is so beautiful six days a week, let’s tolerate all sort of “pollution” on the seventh?
Quit squabbling and come up with some realistic answers/solutions…what about #24’s suggestion. Let’s keep the discussion to serious suggestions/solutions only.
#33: A sense of community and pride in it as well. I don’t know about you, but nowhere else that I have ever lived in this city do I know my neighbors down the street, around the block and several blocks away. Do you know anywhere else where you get a friendly hello from people as you walk around? Not in this city! But I get that all the time here.
Everywhere else, people live in big buildings where you’re lucky to know the people on your hall. Even down in Brooklyn, people keep more to themselves and don’t know who their neighbors are.
That’s what I was writing about above.
People with severe allergies may claim that those pretty flowers are pollution. It’s a matter of showing respect to those drummers as well. People keep posting videos like they are spying on these guys who are out having good clean fun. They are drinking and drugging…they are drumming. Who has taken the time go talk to them like real people? They are criminals…they are men who enjoy drumming. What is the crime in that? You have a quiet, pretty park 6 days a week. Why did this generate a larger response than helping people save their homes or some of the other pressing issues in Harlem? It’s sad really.
“People keep posting videos like they are spying on these guys who are out having good clean fun”…
I shot one of those videos and was physically threatened by two people in the crowd. One was sitting on the bench in the yellow shirt, and the other was one of the female drummers. She was very clear that I was “violating the laws of the drum circle” by taking pictures.
How about violating the laws of the city (Local Law 113) that limits the amount of noise above the normal level in public places?
If the drum circle is willing to compromise and move to the center of the park the situation will remedy itself. No, this is not a threat! Just a request of common courtesy to a group that has previously moved from the east side of the park after requests from residents on there.
http://uptownflavor.wordpress.com/2007/07/02/the-scoop-moving-in-and-out-of-harlem/#comment-16715
I don’t think the new ordinance refers to the drumming. I believe it is for mechanically produced sound.
>It’s a matter of showing respect to those drummers as well.
_
No, it’s not a matter of that, they are entitled to NOTHING, are you kidding me? To date they’ve no shown one ounce of concern about how their expression impacts anyone in the park or anyone that dwells in earshot.
Why do they merit and or warrant “respect”? They’re basically a bunch of inconsiderate arrogant people for assuming entitlement to impose their crap in the nabe for 9 hours.
These are not people that ever gave a rat’s ass about the impact on other park go-ers or the nabe. For example, have they ever collectively come together for a “let’s clean up the park” and volunteered together to spend half-a-day cleaning up the place where they sh*t? Seriously, they could have shown themselves to be concerned community members in numerous ways, have they? They could collect donations and give to the community, the dog run on the other side, they could do something, is that too much to ask for?
They’re just citizens like everyone else and are subject to law like all of us. Why in the hell can’t they form a recognized organization and get a permit to play in that amphitheater in the park? Why can’t they do something constructive for the park? for the community?
They don’t care about anyone but themselves, respect, now that’s funny. No one need defer “respect” to that mass collection of arrogant law breakers that have never before given a damn about anything but themselves, let’s be real. If they had a track record of something beyond self interest, another story, guess what, they don’t.
Arrest’em all (and while you’re at it give’em a bath).
That statement in and of itself explains why there hasn’t hasn’t been a channel of communication open with them. What an evil, vile statement to make about human beings who are essentially your neighbors. Look how many negatives you’ve stated…crap, dirty, arrogant…right now YOU sound like the arrogant one. Self assessment does a lot for the spirit, then maybe you can approach them man to man instead of criticizing them on the web.
Divine, AC, Hugo, Joe Q. and others: The last person to post (Anonymous at 5:06pm) has certain points that I and others on this board agree with, (s)he tends to wrap that valid point in an extra layer of nastiness and intolerance that I (and I think most of the people that have an issue with the drumming) do not agree with and do not condone.
Though it is perhaps easiest to respond to the last poster and attack (rightfully so) the most negative parts of his message, please do not ascribe his comments to the rest of the drum-tired posters on this board. That’s all I wanted to say.
Everyone wants a solution…easy.
The drummers can play all day Saturday (9 straight hours), however, each week they must change locations in the park. One week on the North Side (current location), the second week in the east side, then the north side and the 4th week they hang in the west side. It’s a win-win-win. They get to keep playing in the park (on the edges and not in the middle, which would make every resident happy), they can play all day and the residents can have a ‘pretty’ quiet park three out of the four weeks.
If you live on the north side, you know which Saturday the drummers will be on your side. If the drummers would agree to this, then you would have to accept that on ‘your’ Saturday, they’re going to play and you must find something else to do. If you choose to stay home, then no complaining.
As someone who lives right above the drumming, I’d be happy with this, but would they? If being able to play their drums is what’s matters to them, then they should be okay with it.
People need to stop thinking this is a ‘culture’ thing. I’ve spoken to a handful of African-Americans who leave at or near the park and none have a kind word to say about the drummers. However, most do nothing about it because they don’t think the cops are willing to do anything about it. It has nothing to do with culture, race of style of music. They could blast my favorite band out there all day, but after an hour, I would still have enough.
When you live in NYC, where everyone is on top of everybody, you have to think of others. I listen to an IPOD and I listen to it loud. However, when I get on the subway I turn it down because I have to assume not everybody wants to listen to my music.
48, bad idea. again, it always comes back to the NYPD enforcing law as they would for UES and UWS citizens, why should Harlemites be any less served and protected?
That’s a serious question that ends the debate. If Harlem is a 2nd class community where violation of law is “wink and nodded, permissable, and okay”, then fine, the drummers will continue to violate law with the aid and tacit support of the NYPD.
However if Harlem NYC Citizens are treated equally to UWS, UES citizens, then law should prevail, no? Let the drummer on their own organize, secure permits, etc. do whatever it takes to practice their expression. The drummers, the law violators are the ones that need to organize, communicate with the community, etc.
The Dummers are not the dog, they are the tail. Never let the Tail wag the Dog, the Dog is the Community. Never get it confused or twisted, the drummers are entitled to nothing, they are the tail and at the mercy of the community. They’re simply “bogart-ing” the community, disrespecting it, and daring anyone to challenging their imposing on your ear drum for 9 hours….
Please. I think everyone on here (with the exception of those who want to oust the drummers with no regard) have come up with excellent solutions. I think these options should be presented to both the drummers and the leaders of the Mount Morris Association in a joint meeting. I feel in my spirit that if this is handled properly everyone can reach a reasonable solution. We all have to share Harlem now so let’s do our part to be good neighbors to one another.
i was forwarded a link to this discussion. being a former brooklynite who attended school at city college, it is sad to see some of the comments here. i remember growing up and going with my mother to marcus garvey park, prospect park, tompkins park to listen to the drummers. what sticks in my mind was the energy. crowds would gather and it seemed like in the midst of the chaos that was around, that chaos did not exist. i remember conversation that were positive and feeling connected to something that was greater than myself.
this may sound silly to some of you but its part of the harlem i remember. property owners, regardless of color have a right to live comfortably. i think in this instance, there needs to be an understanding and respect for the history of harlem. harlem cant be considered just a piece of property. the people who are still there and probably grew up there along with the ‘traditions’ should not be cast aside just because you new residents shelled out big bucks to live in a ‘diverse’ neighborhood.
it sounds to me that some of you that have posted have no sense of history about yourselves. but you will be the first one running to the next big thing whatever that may be. is it that important to KNOW THE LAW or is it more important to be in a place where if anything happened someone had your back. compromise is the best solution and really should be the only solution.
#51, Please don’t try to reason with these folks based on history or anything else that you or I may value about Harlem. Their goal is to sanitize the community to the point that they feel they’re living in a northern version of Yorkville or something.
And #49, stop yapping about the Upper Westside. I’ve actually lived there and we had noise and other quality of life issues like just like we do here in Harlem. So save the second class citizen stuff for your therapist.
The tail and dog example is dumb. No one is suggesting that the community kow-tow to the drummers. What community minded folks are calling for is leaving your “turn the cops loose on them” tactic as an absolute last resort. We know from tragic experience how the cops get down once they are turned loose and it could set off a conflagration that would be worse than any noise the drummers are causing now.
“Maybe the drummers should meet with area residents (ie. Block Assoc.) and come up with a compromise. For example, coordinate something with the area residents and the tour companies to deliver professional shows at designated dates/times/location…I think this would preserve the art and culture while also ensuring the right of area residents to quiet enjoyment of their homes, park, and community.”
Their drumming is not about entertaining tourists. Yes people are welcome to view the drumming, but you reduce the significance of the drumming within the culture when you suggest making it a tourist attraction.
From my post in the other thread:
What bothers me about this debate is that people don’t realize the siginficance of the drumming to the drummers and their community.
It’s not something they are doing to annoy their neighbors. It is a very significant part of the culture.
All accross this country there are people in parks drumming on weekends. 8-10 hours a day. It’s a major part of the culture.
Drumming is a major way that people not only stay connected to their community while away from home, but it is a way to maintain the culture and pass it along to their children.
I’d like the people on this board to imagine how they would feel if one of their ethnic/religious/cultural activites were suddenly made illegal.
Not just illegal, but illegal in America.
What does trying to do this say about this country?
Wasn’t this country founded on the idea of religious/cultural freedom?
(I’ll stop here, because I know if I write what else I’m thinking, it will be seen as inflamatory.)
Wow! The timing is interesting-start enforcing noise ordinances that never were enforced strongly in Harlem until the “new settlers” started flying in like vultures in Harlem. Notice the name changing verbally (amongst the new settlers) and in print (see the fifth on the park website and blogs of Harlem all over)of Marcus Garvey Park (since 1973) soon the park signs will go. The drummers are a tradition in the park. Maybe the drum sounds seep into the soul (if you have one) and reminds people of the past. Maybe the drums are communicating with the soul of the long time residents of Harlem. Who knows but we all know that once that tower goes up the goal is to clear that park out and commandeer it from the long time residents. You will see pasty bodies lying on the grass drying up in the ultraviolet rays and multiple dog mini parks (already one there) did the dog population increase with the new residents or is that me? Are the dogs for protection or companionship? Anyway the drums need to be protected at all costs. The fines will come soon for the drummers; the barbeque folks will be next. The smell of flesh will irritate the new property owners. Then the basketball courts will be too loud9 can’t those kids just play ball without making so much noise? Soon you are going to need a key to get in the park. You will see a new block and park association. They are already going to all the meetings that somehow do not get advertised. How do they know about these community meetings? Go to one and see a different community. You can’t get a seat past 96th street anymore and soon you will be tripping over another sidewalk café. Defend the drummers. If you don’t they will effectively remove what character Harlem had. The tour buses will at least stop gawking at you on the street because what self respecting European tourist wants to take pictures of someone that looks like them? Hans, I thought Harlem was the Black Mecca of the World? Was. They want that park. It pretty much was promised to the new residents of the Watchtower being built I guess the state of the art cathedral on the ground floor will be sound proof- can’t have gospel music seeping up to the duplexes-or the contract might call for all gospel singing and music will end in the new building. Who knows?
THEY TOOK THE DRUMS AWAY FROM US IN SLAVERY FOR A REASON. NOW HISTORY REPEATS ITSELF. Drums make some feel good and some feel uneasy. Genetic memories of either celebration of culture or some dark, mysterious place. Memories of lands conquered, raped and destroyed or new land gained. Memories of a people kidnapped and torn away from their home or criminals fleeing to a new land to exploit. Drums tell a story. What will this summer’s drums sessions say?
Bring your drum out on Saturday and support the drummers
harlem girl you hit the nail on the head. thank you.
I have this very irritating habit of playing devil’s advocate, so here goes…It seems that many people here are for compromise. Let’s get the MMPCIA to meet with the drummers and work out a compromise.
But (and here’s the skeptic in me coming out) why should we assume that the drummers are willing to (A) speak with us, (B)consider our feelings, (C) work out a compromise, when they have given no hint that they are even doing anything disruptive or annoying? Last weekend we watched them argue with the police before driving them away. That’s visible on the video.
And if, by some stroke of luck and lots of wishful thinking, a compromise can be reached, who will make sure that the rotation schedule is adhered to? Is this a temporary fix until they get tired of rotating and revert back to a designated spot?
We’re all open to compromise…But I remain skeptical…Help to convince me otherwise!
#51 - It is a much different thing, I’m sure, to visit the drum circle, listen for awhile and then continue about your day than it is to live close to them, always hearing them no matter what you’re trying to do.
Harlem Girl - it is a matter of living in a society. They may not be trying to annoy their neighbors, but they do. Should we give them a gold star for not trying to annoy? In a society, you cannot just do ANYTHING you want if it is going to impinge on the rights of others in that society in a meaningful way. And again, I come back to the bagpiper example (which must be a pretty good example, since nobody has ever responded to it) - there is a lot of culture behind that, and piping away is a means to maintaining the culture and passing it on to their children. But when they come to your doorstep (where was that again? happy to send them) when you’re trying to chill out, sleep, or just go about your daily activities and pipe (I assume that’s what they call “playing the bagpipes”
for 9 hours, you won’t care about their cultural imperatives. You’ll want to puncture their bagpipe. Because they’re stepping on your toes and your rights.
Same thing here. I think most people engaged in this debate DO know that the drum circle is important and even enjoyable to some people. But they’re tired of the audial assault. Which is why the conversation quickly turned to ways of compromise and how to get along.
New Anon,
I don’t believe their drumming impinges on the rights of others in society.
In regards to the bagpipe example, I ignored it because my comments may have taken this discussion somewhere else.
But since you insist on a response, I feel that bagpipes are no different than drums.
I believe that bagpiping, just as drumming, is a culturally expressive form for creating community within a culture and expressing a musical/cultural artform.
If I moved into a neighborhood that had bagpippers, and the bagpipes annoyed me, I would not try to remove the bagpippers. I would leave the neighborhood.
In regards to where I live, when everyone else on this board stops being anonymous and starts posting their addresses, I will too.
“Let’s get the MMPCIA to meet with the drummers and work out a compromise.”
Technically, if the MMPCIA does what it’s website says, they should be on the side of the drummers.
From their webisite:
“MMPCIA is a 501 (c) (3) not-for-profit neighborhood preservation organization committed to ensuring the historic character and the revitalization in and around the Mount Morris Park Historic District.”
From the Landmarks Preservation Committee Website:
(http://www.nyc.gov/html/lpc/html/faqs/faq_meaning.shtml)
“What is a historic district?
A historic district is an area of the city that has been designated by the Landmarks Preservation Commission because it has a special character or a special historical or aesthetic interest which causes it to have a distinct “sense of place.”
Since the Mt. Morris Park area has been designated a historic district, should the drummers be allowed to stay since they are a part of the history and culture of Harlem?
This is way too funny, the efforts to legitimize the drummers & suggest they’re woven into the fabric of culture? They’re not even a cohesive organization, just a loose rag tag amalgamation of musicians imposing their crap on park goe-ers and the nabe.
They assume entitlement. I walked by 111 CPN North today & Lenox Ave, gateway into Central Park and thought could they drum here just inside the park? Hell No. The well heeled of 111 CPN would make a phone call and the police would serve and protect them.
The community does not have to negotiate, the community is not at the mercy of the drummers. Tax payers that live their and fund the NYPD? They need to call the NYPD and demand service and protection under law, period.
The drummers are at the mercy of the nabe to come to them and appeal. Most of you got it bassackwards. The drummers have no authority, power, nothing. The issue is the NYPD serving the nabe as they would the well heeld of CPN, UES, & UWS.
They should be arrested - ALL of them. Then maybe, just maybe they would see they need to approach the community and work things out - they are at the mercy of the community, they have no rights to bang a drum all day, give me a break.