Since we took an early weekend, the scoop is overflowing and dripping down the sides!
Real Estate:
Baruch Singer closes on two more uptown buildings [TRE]
Tony award winner moves to Harlem after 27 years [NYT] Photos by Chester Higgins
But, not everyone is buying in Harlem [NYDN]
How did Savoy West slip under the radar? [Elliman] and more [Elliman]
Culture:
Jazz Museum of Harlem still homeless but going strong [Sun]
Behind the scenes of the Apollo (audio slideshow) [BBC]
Community:
Tragic park shooting results in more police presence [NYT]
Mister Softee can’t catch a break but maybe you can catch some ZZZZs this summer [NYT]
Sports:
Harlem street ball legend’s son anxiously awaits NBA draft results; results announced [Newsday]
Religion:
Mennonites in Harlem [Bubkes]
Restaurants:
M&G closed for ever? [Eater]
Uhuru1906
July 7, 2007
David – you’re comment is really both sad and embarrasing. A number of us have been on this blog trying to defend the drummers and find a reasonable soulution to this problem and then you post this ridiculous racial drivel.
If you’re really an “original drummer”, then you know people, who look like you, had issues with the drummers playing out there all day. So don’t be so quick to make this all a “white conspiracy”.
Yes, this is Harlem and many of us understand its history as a predominately Black community, but other folks live here too and will continue to do so. Many are buying homes and they’re tax dollars go to pay to upkeep Marcus Garvey Park just like I presume yours does.
Many probably don’t want to silence the drummers. They just want reasonable hours for them to play and maybe a different location in the park. In a crowded community and city, compromise always has to be in effect around the use of public spaces.
You and the drummers need to wake up and understand you are in a c-o-m-m-u-n-i-t-y. You’ll have to learn to co-exist and cooperate with others. The onus here is on you.
If you’re not reasonable about this and it becomes a police enforcement issue, you’ll have no one to blame but your selves.
Uhuru1906
July 7, 2007
So much for reasonable discourse.
DAVID
July 6, 2007
I am one of the original drummers in that park for many yrs.we had permits to play untill 9pm. once a week. this is a nother case of paleface taking the land from the red skins.we had relocated in many parts of the park.we had establish ourself on fith ave. when a empty lot was there its used to be where a still drummers group played at. you must relize this is what harlem is all about.this is what you call harlem flava and culture and also spritual. its our park we grew up here. for the white people who move in those condos pls dont come in our homes and communities and bother people and start running things and harassing our kids and people cause you scared to let people live in peace. IF YOU DONT LIKE IT HERE THAN LEAVE GO BACK WHERE YOU CAME HERE WE DONT NEED YOU HERE THIS NOT YOU LAND , SOUL OR CULTURE. PEACE TO MY HUMBLE PEOPLE
K-Ra
July 6, 2007
As a Lifetime New Yorker I’ve dealt with noise pollution my entire life. Be it construction, traffic, loud neighbors,or loud music. I’m sorry, but Drum circles are a bit different. The circle isn’t simply some self absorbed action. The circle and the drum is culture. Its pre-existing, and simultaneously, recaptured culture. I completely understand how this point would matter very little to a large majority of the Harlem community, but it matters. The circle around the city MUST be preserved. I understand how the volume may infringe on new and old resident’s Q.T. but its not a plague, or a personel assault. Its culture and any people, or person would become aggressive and disagreeable if you’re trying to oppress their culture. Yes, compromise should be sought, but all parties such be respected. No one’s in the wrong on this topic in my opinion. That is other then those who if the need to express themselves in a disrespectful tone that only belittles their own stance.
Indy
July 5, 2007
I agree with Mindful. And can everybody stop talking as though these drummers are some kind of exotic tribe that can only express themselves through their primal drum circles? They are 21st century New Yorkers pissing off their neighbors, and they’re going to have to figure out a way to get along. After a point, defending them because of “their culture” isn’t tolerance, it’s patronizing.
Mindful
July 5, 2007
I think that something has been lost in the last few posts: the vast majority of the people who have talked about the drumming just want to find a compromise that works for everybody (no, Harlem Girl, selling their apartments and moving away is not a compromise). I think there is exactly one person on this board against the noise who is being unreasonable about the drumming. I’ve heard (I think) 4 different possible solutions offered up by those who would like to enjoy their homes on Saturday: (1) limit the amount of time the drummers drum to a couple of hours, (2) have them rotate to different sides of the park every week, (3) have them rotate to different sides of the park every couple of hours, or (4) move to the southeast corner of the park where nobody lives.
Personally, I think #4 would be best for everybody as it is less of a pain in the ass for the drummers and it solves the concerns people have about being able to be in their house on Saturday (and everybody should have a right to use their private property, regardless of anybody’s idea that nobody should be at home on Saturday). I don’t think anybody has expressed anything against the culture of drumming or the importance to some people in the community. In fact, a few people against the noise have even noted that it is interesting and how skilled the drummers are at what they do (I think New Anon and Joe Q. have said that somewhere above).
I think that we all just need to calm down and find a solution that works for everybody. Like it or not, the new members of the community are part of the community (and like it or not for the new members of the community, the old members of the community are part of the community). It’s just about compromise and getting along, not “entitlement” or “imposing wills” (because that appears to be on both sides here).
Talking Drums
July 4, 2007
In the African culture, music was an integral part of all aspects of life
American plantation owners, fearing revolt, destroyed most of these potentially dangerous instruments and music and dance fell under strict controls.
Aside from music making, African musical instruments, like those of our own (American) society, may function as symbols of a political hierarchy or of social status. Some drums were so closely identified with leadership that if the king’s drums were captured, it was as though the ruler himself had been abducted.
Slave colonies in the thirteen colonies experienced more stringent prohibitions against African music making, ritual, and dance than those in the Caribbean and South America.
Slaves generally needed to recast African musical practices into a form that was acceptable to their masters. African drums and other signaling devices were destroyed, and slaves began to take up European instruments.
Without addressing the historical and cultural context of this situation we are bound to watch history repeat itself. Can we afford that? Two quotes by Marcus Mosiah Garvey come to mind, “A people without the knowledge of their past history, origin and culture is like a tree without roots.” “We have outgrown slavery, but our minds are still enslaved to the thinking of the master race. Now take those kinks out of your mind instead of out of your head.” “Liberty for Africans at home and abroad.” If Garvey were alive, whose side do you think he would be on? Just some food for thought as we reflect on liberty and independence today.
HARLEM OBSERVER
July 4, 2007
If you are a NYC native, 9 out of 10 times your hearing is poor or your tolerance for loud noise is high. Basic noise you ignore-the subway, trucks, sirens cars construction (Harlemites know). I think those new NYCers or those who lived in quiet parts of NYC who move to Harlem have hyper sensitive ears. Maybe 9 hours of drumming is a lot. Like a poster said-why are you in the house on a nice Saturday? If you moved to Harlem for peace and quiet- leave. Even with these noise rules suddenly being enforced (the new Harlem) you will not kill the noise. Traditionally we long time Harlemites are outside, in the parks enjoying the outdoors. Not in our tiny rentals. Now if your crib looks like that new tower on Fifth Ave you probably will be swimming in the safety of your indoor pool or burning yourselves to look like your neighbors on your sunroof peering down at the natives (probably shooting footage of people gathering in the park to submit to the police). Be thankful black people are in and respectful of everyone. Those of you who sneak video of us might have had your camera taken. We tolerate you but don’t push it. Imposing your will and your sense of entitlement on every place you go is your history. Now the battle lines are drawn. Will Harlem stand up or have we been so diluted by assimilation and good willed blacks to tolerate yet another infringement on our traditions. While there are rules and regulations for everything in NYC some things have been allowed to continue. Just because you chose to overpay for a sheetrock condo in Harlem does not give you the right to dictate what people do in their community. Go ahead and commandeer every community board and association before you unpack your bags. We know the pattern been played out throughout history. Do you hear the drums? We are talking. Wrong battle to pick.
HARLEM OBSERVER
July 4, 2007
WATCHING YOU WATCH THE DRUMMERS.
Anonymous
July 4, 2007
HG, it’s not inflammatory…it’s the truth and some people don’t like hearing the truth.
Harlem Girl
July 4, 2007
What bothers me about this debate is that people don’t realize the siginficance of the drumming to the drummers and their community.
It’s not something they are doing to annoy their neighbors. It is a very significant part of the culture.
All accross this country there are people in parks drumming on weekends. 8-10 hours a day. It’s a major part of the culture.
Drumming is a major way that people not only stay connected to their community while away from home, but it is a way to maintain the culture and pass it along to their children.
I’d like the people on this board to imagine how they would feel if one of their ethnic/religious/cultural activites were suddenly made illegal.
Not just illegal, but illegal in America.
What does trying to do this say about this country?
Wasn’t this country founded on the idea of religious/cultural freedom?
(I’ll stop here, because I know if I write what else I’m thinking, it will be seen as inflamatory.)
Divine1906
July 3, 2007
I don’t know Mr. Williams so I can’t say whether or not he’d be a good choice, but maybe.
I probably wouldn’t go with a Parks Department employee at this point. They’d only be see as “officaldom” coming down on the drummers and kick-off the kind of unecessary fracas we want to avoid.
We have a real opportunity here to handle this in a constructive manner. I have know doubt that some drummers will be totally unreasonable at first. They’ll vent a whole bunch of related and un-related frustrations around this, but again, like in Aikido, you receive the force and flow with it. You focus them on what the negative alternative is and that they are in a position to determine their own fate by conceeding some stuff important to the surrounding residents.
If you believe that Valerie and Pat can’t be honest brokers on this, then maybe it should be Mr. Williams. I have no idea what his vibe or approach would be and those things are everything to resolving this with the least amount of drama.
Maybe State Senator Bill Perkins. He has some “street cred”.
New Anon
July 3, 2007
Anonymous 5:08, I did not shoot that video (or any video).
Divine, how about Don Williams, who is the current president of the MMPCIA? Or somebody more official – a Parks official? I respect both Miss Pat and Valerie Jo Bradley – and they are long-time activists who have done a LOT for the community – but I think you have to find a true mediator, somebody who can not take sides.
Anyway, thanks for doing the footwork to start finding a compromise.
Divine1906
July 3, 2007
I’m pretty sure it won’t get resolved by this Saturday. The group is loose and without structure so they’ll have to be approached literally while they’re on sight.
They don’t have any formal leadership, but there will probably be a couple of folks among them who carry more weight than the rest and should be the ones to negotiate with.
I’d start by tracking down Valerie Jo Bradley. While she may not agree to be the point person, she might have some good suggestions on putting together the process for getting this done and who should be involved. She was the former President (or Executive Director) of the Mt. Morris Park Improvement Association and has done a fair amount of work and programming in the Park itself.
Patricia Eaton, one of the founders of the MMPCIA might be a good go-to person as well.
Anonymous
July 3, 2007
If you were the one who took that video I would suggest that you not get involved in the process. I could tell by the way that you shot the drummers that it was intrusive and I probably would have yelled at you too. That was not a respectful way to approach them. Divine seems to have some community connections. Please let him and the other Mount Morris residents involved with the community board deal with the problem. Right now, with all due respect, you are actually agitating the situation.
New Anon
July 3, 2007
Divine – thank you for your proposed solution. How do we set this in motion? I saw some of the drummers go yell at people last Saturday who stopped by and took some pictures. Do you really think they’ll agree to a sit-down? Are there “leaders” of that drum circle to talk to? How long would it take to reach an agreement – before this Saturday?
Hugo
July 3, 2007
sounds good…
Divine1906
July 3, 2007
Harlem Girl, save your breath. Some folks won’t be satisfied until they’ve imposed the same sterile environment on Harlem that they came from. They have no concept of what “Uptown Flavor” is in the first place. They only can quote ordinances.
That said, the approach I would use to deal with this would be to find one or two respected and respectful local activists, Valerie Jo Bradley comes to mind, and have them reach out to the drummers for a sitdown of some kind.
Make it clear to the drummers that no one is trying to silence them (at least not some of us), but with the increase in residetial development around the park, the hours of drumming have become an issue. We’d like to work with them to find a resolution that works for every one. Moving deeper into the park could be a suggestion and limiting the hours of drumming should be a goal. Make it clear that here’s an opportunity to settle this among community minded folks before the Parks Dept. or the cops have to get involved.
I’m sure some in the drummer’s circle will react vituperatively and see themselves as yet another victim of yuppie gentrification. But I would expect that and roll with that punch. Make it clear that the alternative for them could be much worse and that this is a way to handle it without drama.
Anonymous
July 3, 2007
…and the council has spoken. I think we’re done here!
Hugo
July 3, 2007
Ha, I had no idea that I had calming words. I don’t know if I’ll accomplish as much with the following, but here goes. First,I think that a lot of people here are simply posting to see their words plastered somewhere and see someone reply. It would be redundant to state what I have stated before: to paint racial tones onto this is wanting to incite something that simply is not there. I would particularly like to see one of the drummer fellows perhaps engage in this “conversation” we’ve been having.
I’m sincerely appealing to their reason as, if it is not already the case,many of you have basically armed them with the tools they need to make this a race problem and therefore play that card to death. The whole “they took our drums” thing may have its place in other isolated situations within Harlem. However, THIS IS NOT OF THOSE SITUATIONS. This a noise pollution problem.
It is a matter of enforcing these laws the same way one might call 311 when someone is bumping “Black Republicans” (one of my personal fav rap song) at 1AM on a Tuesday night. The only difference now is that the law has clearly delineated boundaries and measurable limits to noise empowering those wanting some peace and quiet where they live. It is their right to impose those rules. THEIR RIGHT.
As I hope this will be a topic point at the next community board meeting, it is my hope that all folks who share this frustration (black,white, hispanic, newcomer, oldtimer) come together to completely inoculate any accusation that this is anything other than a noise pollution.
Also, there are laws regulating all types of things done in public places. So please don’t say you cannot ban people from freely using public spaces. It is not people being banned, it is actions that are agreed by consensus to infringe on a person’s quality of living in the city. This also applies to churches who set up amp systems to preach in the street. These things require permits. So, why can’t everyone just play ball here! Regardless of whether something is artistically genius or tasteless if you have gotten a permit, you can legally do what you want. It protects peoples’ quality of life while at the same time protecting freedom of speech.
New Anon
July 3, 2007
Oh, and the flute player who plays with the drummers has volunteered as well. He’ll give you the usual (he “plays” the same thing no matter what else is going on).
New Anon
July 3, 2007
Harlem Girl,
Where do you live? When is it that you like to relax? Let me know – I have to give an address and a time my favorite 12-piece bagpiper band so they can play on the sidewalk in front of your building when you’re chilling out. If you’re lucky, they’ll bring a guy clanging cymbals as well.
Harlem Girl
July 3, 2007
New Anon, I think it is unreasonable for people to be banned from freely using public spaces.
Yes, I am suggesting that ANY noise in a public place is reasonable.
Yes, I understand that it is totally opposite of the new noise law.
Yes, I am against the new noise law.
Joe Q. Harlem
July 3, 2007
Thank you Moderator…Let’s eveyone take a deep breath.
It’s not “noise”, “crap” or any other inflammatory adjective that anyone wants to place on it.
It’s simply “too much”. Love opera? Go listen to Puccini for 9 hours! Love disco? Go listen to Donna Summer singing “McGarvey Park” at high decibel levels for 9 hours, THEN let me know how you feel.
Percussion instruments (notice how I did NOT call them drums since I refuse to suggest any type of confrontation, battle or war) disturb the peace of every individual, family, religious organization and patron of the library after too many hours.
Whatever happened to taking into consideration other people’s feelings? Stopping by the park to enjoy the performance for a few hours is a pleasant afternoon experience. Persistent, un-relenting, incessant, mind-numbing percussion is just annoying and disruptive.
Next?
New Anon
July 3, 2007
Harlem Girl, are you really saying what I think you’re saying? That the residents who live across the street from the park should just deal with it (no change from the drummers) or they should move? Is that a real, rational response to what is obviously a point of contention with reasonable people on both sides (and I’m only assuming that the drummers are reasonable – which may be a stretch, since they go to a residential park every Saturday and do what they do as loudly as they do it and expect nobody to have any issues).
And by the way, sounds of children lauging on the playground or splashing in the pool or dogs on a walk or birds chirping – those are park noises that one expects to hear in a public place. You’re suggesting that ANY noise in a public place is reasonable – and that is totally opposite of what Mayor Bloomberg’s new noise law, passed by the city council, assumes.
Harlem Girl
July 3, 2007
People are looking for a “solution”, but I really don’t see a problem.
I find it amazing that people would move across the street from a public place and not expect to hear the public.
Divine1906
July 3, 2007
No #33. It’s not a threat at all. I don’t make threats. I’m just someone who lived through the Freddy’s fire and it’s aftermath and the Million Youth March and it’s aftermath.
Moderator
July 3, 2007
In light of Hugo’s absence I’ll step in. I agree AC that we need to step away from the keyboard for a moment. Let’s get regain our perspective so we can see both viewpoints. We probably won’t change each other’s minds but at least we can respond in a calm manner.
ac
July 3, 2007
oh god. here we go. you all know how i get when the heat turns up on this board. HUGO–where are your calming words when we need them?
New Anon
July 3, 2007
Divine, you have offered no solutions to the problem. Do you believe that there is no solution?
And as for your quotations around “noise” – as if it is unreasonable for somebody subjected to it for 9 hours each week to call it that (even while recognizing that there is some skill and art to it that is enjoyable in small doses) – what would you say if 20 bagpipers parked outside of your residence for 9 hours while you were home each week and practiced their craft? “The first thing they did is take away our pipes…”?
Al
July 3, 2007
Divine, is this a threat?
Amina J
July 3, 2007
Harlem is a cultural community….that’s why I moved here. When I go to Marcus Garvey park, and hear the drummers, my spirit feels happy and alive. I don’t live right across the street. But, it will be a sad day if the drummers are ever forced to leave the park.
Divine1906
July 3, 2007
Post #20 – I don’t actually have a specific cite for that expression. It’s just something I’ve heard over the years.
I thought it was an ironic expression in light of this discussion about drumming being “noise” and people wanting the cops to crack down on the drummers. Anyone who really is in tune or wants to be in tune with this community knows that is exactly the wrong way to handle this issue.
As someone who’s attended drummer’s circles in Central Park, Prospect Park and Marcus Garvey Park (and I’m not a drummer), it’s been interesting to see how it means one thing to some of us and represents just “crap” to others.
I used it because it represents a perfect metaphor for what’s happening in Harlem today. It’s all about perspective so I wouldn’t expect everyone to get it.
It’s also not a racial issue. In many of the circles I’ve been to, any number of cool white folks have participated and been welcomed. And there are plenty of black wannabe’s that feel the same way as some of the newcomers in reference to drumming being a nuisance. I’m clear about that.
Lastly, you don’t need me to inflame passions. The way you refer to what folks are doing as “illegal”, “noise” and “crap” and calling for the cops to crack down on them will do the trick just fine.
While you may not like my take on it, I believe I represent exactly the sentiment you’ll be met with when you begin your police action. Actually, I’m a moderate compared to what you will face.
Drummers see them here
July 3, 2007
You can see the drummers here and make a decision for yourself:
In my opinion, this is way too much, too noisy, too disrespectful to people in the neighbourhood. For God’s sake — there is a nun’s convent and a librabry across the street. Show some respect.
Also, read what the law says:
d) Noise; Musical Instruments; Sound Reproduction Devices
(1) No person shall make, or cause or allow to be made, unreasonable noise in any park so as to cause public inconvenience, annoyance or harm. Unreasonable noise means any excessive or unusually loud sound that disturbs the peace, comfort or repose of a reasonable person of normal sensitivity or injures or endangers the health or safety of a reasonable person of normal sensitivity, or which causes injury to plant or animal life, or damage to property or business.
And where is the police, the park commission to enforce the law
New Anon
July 3, 2007
You know, a statement like that from Divine is really just meant to inflame passions. I guess it doesn’t really incite the masses to say something that more closely represents the truth in this case, like:
“The first thing we did is move our drums two blocks away so we could keep on drumming…”
or
“The first thing we did is agree to drum for 2 hours instead of the whole day so everybody can enjoy the park…”
Harlem Girl
July 3, 2007
Divine1906 Says:
“The first thing they did was take away our drums…”
Divine was making a reference to the actions by slave traders when capturing Africans for slavery.
ac
July 3, 2007
this is the problem with how these debates always go. hugo is right–it’s a noise issue…but some idiot always has to come out of the woodwork and start saying inflammatory things that just divides people.
here we had come to this great compromise! everyone on this board on both sides of the debate agreed! then idiot at 8:22pm jumps in and everyone runs to their separate corners again.
divide and conquer.
Hugo
July 3, 2007
ha…drums=war. that must me the most assinine thing I’ve heard this side of curbed…lol. i’m not even to going to touch that one. this is a noise issue, not a racial one.
Community
July 2, 2007
Oh my goodness!!! Are you serious? So this is a personal vendetta then? All day and night?? Come on??? I am a public school teacher and to be honest, drummers would be the last thing to distract my students from taking an exam. I’ve taught deep in the Bronx and had music thumpin’ and bumpin’ from cars outside the school and the students dealt with it because they are used to it in their households. They don’t come from quiet homes….of course I am opening up a whole different discussion but come on!!! Sorry, no dice.
Anonymous
July 2, 2007
Just being honest and to the point. The drummers will turn this into a racial identity & class issue – count on it – or in other words, a social challenge issue. The “ball” is law, compromise, co-existence, etc. They will not recognize the “ball” and focus on social entitlement to produce their noise in a park unrestricted or limited of all considerations (beyond their pleasure) while disregarding thousands of people live just feet away from their noise.
Considerate people would not have been doing what they’ve been doing, for years. The people have not felt one ounce of social concern about their behavior, ever. If you think suddenly they are going to grow a social conscious…..you’re fooling yourself. Just watch.
Example, the corner of I35th & 5th, a guy sells flowers there, 2 or 3 drummers are often there drumming. I myself confronted the drummers and politely asked them if they could postpone their drumming for 2 hours. We ended up in a big fight, they asserted their right to bang their drums on that corner.
Why did I confront them? I was sub’ing at the school diagonally across the street on a school day afternoon and I had a room full of kids taking an exam. Did these drummers care? Hell no. I appealed to them to be sensitive to children taking an exam in classrooms 80 feet away from their drumming, they did not give a rat’s ass, these are the same people that on Saturday are at Mt. Morris Park, I see them, I know, let’s be real. These are some self righteous SOBs. I know their mentality, they want the right to blast their crap in you ear all day and night, unrestricted.
New Anon
July 2, 2007
You see what you did, #18? You put me and Community on the same side here. And we were on such a roll!
Seriously, though, I have to agree with Community. This is not, nor to my knowledge, ever has been, a racial issue.
This is purely and only a noise issue and the debate between the drummers and the larger community about what is reasonable – is it reasonable to loudly beat drums (upwards of 20 or 25 at a time) next to residences and park users for 9 hours straight or is it reasonable to ask for that not to happen? I would also defend those who were accused of being anti-Scot if they lived across from a couple dozen bagpipers who played for 9 hours straight every Saturday (using the example somebody above used). You don’t have to have a beef with the McAnythings to not like the noise.
New Anon
July 2, 2007
#18 – I wholeheartedly disagree with your assessment. That is not the way to approach this situation. Mass arrest? For a noise violation? C’mon! You can call it rude, inconsiderate, selfish or other things, but unless there is something else, that’s uncalled for.
I do agree, though that the Community Association should try to step in and mediate a solution. Let’s see what happens, though, as I think the Association’s old guard would prefer to sit on the fence on this one. Anybody with any influence over this, though, should give it a shot.
Community
July 2, 2007
You see…here we had reached a solution and here you come with this nonsense!!! This in NOT Tarzan!!! Do you realize the racial implications you just raised? Of course not…”Think about it, the very nature of “drums” – percussion – beating – tribal – “war”.
It’s not like we’re dealing with Wind instrumentalist, these are people that like to beat. There’s no solution other than confrontation, challenge, and that’s unfortunate.”
Why are you living in Harlem with that mindset? Or do you even live in Harlem?
anon
July 2, 2007
divine-a google search of that quote turned up nothing. where is it from?
Divine1906
July 2, 2007
“The first thing they did was take away our drums…”
Anonymous
July 2, 2007
The problem with reasonable solutions is I highly doubt the drummers will be understanding, reasonable, and sensitive to the impact of their expression. Think about it, the very nature of “drums” – percussion – beating – tribal – “war”.
It’s not like we’re dealing with Wind instrumentalist, these are people that like to beat. There’s no solution other than confrontation, challenge, and that’s unfortunate.
The Community Assoc. needs to get the Police to enforce Law AND simultaneously let the drummers know they need to organize & form a group or club or association and the Community Association will be agreeable to 2 or so hours of Summer drumming on a Saturday.
In other words the Community Association will allow the breaking of law for 2, and only 2, hours on a weekend – for example. The problem with this? Those drummers will not ogranize and become a defined body or group.
I can see those drummers trying to turn this into a “cause” & “fight”. – Again, the nature of their passion – beating the drums of war. So where does that leave us? The police need to enforce the law – mass arrest.
Community
July 2, 2007
Fair enough. Do you think the Community Association can mediate based on the solutions that were just proposed?
New Anon
July 2, 2007
To #10,
Your response only validates that one would have to leave the building across the street from the drummers in order “to something you enjoy”. But fair enough on knowing which complex your friend is in.
I appreciate your call to reasonableness too. And as other people have noted, clearly there are options other than (1) the drummers staying put and drumming for 9 hours straight and (2) the residents that border the park leaving their homes during said duration.
The options I think are available are to (A) have the drummers move somewhere less impactful on their neighbors and park users – like the interior of the park, the top of the acropolis or the southeast corner of the park, (B) limit the amount of time they drum to 2 or 3 hours tops, (C) move around the park so no one spot is too impacted, and of course (D) get kicked out of the park altogether when the people who feel terrorized by all the drumming have the police enforce the new noise laws.
Nobody wants (D) to happen (I don’t think), but if a compromise can’t be reached, that may be the unfortunate result. Do you know any of the drummers? Do you think they can be reasonable – and understanding that they DO impact other people’s enjoyment of the park? My friends told me last week that they feel like they won’t have any other options than to call the cops since nothing else seems to work (and since the drummers already know that they’re pissing people off and don’t try to do anything about it).
That would not be the best result. BUT – like I said earlier, there is a public safety element to it too. I walk around that park and I know that the cops and the park patrol are based right at the pool – which is right next to the drummers. After the events of two weekends ago, I’d rather the drummers move than to have something happen where the right people can’t hear it.
Anonymous
July 2, 2007
Comparing the drumming to kids on dirt bikes and guns and drug? Now we are stretching it. What kind of police state are you trying to impose on Harlem…no BBQs either? Sheesh! No wonder the life long residents are up in arms. Someone call the fun police! Uptown flavor? Not with you people around!
Joe Q. Harlem
July 2, 2007
“Those drummers have been there for years…”
And so were guns and drugs! But the police cracked down on those illegal activities for the betterment of the park and the neighborhood!
And YES, “performances” of this nature are regulated by law, and THEY ARE ILLEGAL WITHOUT A PERMIT!
As a resident of Harlem for many, many years, I am tired of having a headache every Saturday afternoon.
I’m ready to chip in for those bagpipers! Where can I send my donation?
eastharlemanon
July 2, 2007
#10-what if what brings pleasure to ME on MY one day off a week is to enjoy my home in peace and quiet? or to invite my family over? or to work on some home improvement projects?
i should have to be subject to what is actually very good drumming but after 8 hours i want to stab myself in the eyesocket??? you have no concept what it’s like to live right there. im not criticizing you-i agreed with you before i moved to where i am now—but it’s wrong to impose that level of noise into people’s homes for that many hours every weekend.
Anonymous
July 2, 2007
“Those drummers have been there for years and are a vital part of that community’s vibe”
LOL. Gimme a break. When you know you have no right to be doing what you’re doing, rule No. One, wrap yourself up in the ethnicity blanket and dare another person to question your right to be ethnic & practice ethnic expression. What a crock (and I am Black).
There are lots of things that are inappropriate for City living that you can get away with in wide open spaces. Producing enormous amounts of smells and odors is regulated in this City. BBQ’ing, smoking a Cigar or Cigarettes, etc. you can’t do many things in your private space in a City in some cases – whereas you can in wide open spaces. Fans & AC’s on top of buildings – challenged all the time in court for the noise they produce impacting the nabe.
Kids in Harlem have a tradition of riding ATV and Dirt Bikes up and down the street, poppin’ wheelies, etc. It’s all illegal – but since it’s a tradition of the youth to do this, should we accept it? I’ve been seeing this in Harlem for over fifteen years. Should tradition prevail over law?
Believe it or not there’s just some things that are inappropriate for the City – that you can get away with in wide open spaces. A city is about co-existing, and guess what, that means you can’t have it all your own way. Those Drummers want it all their own way. They want the right to impose their expression on your quality of life for 8 hours on Saturday.
Can I go in front of those drummers homes, and in front of the homes of their supporters with 30 or 40 bagpipers blarring away for 8 continuous hours? What, you have a problem with my crew of 3 dozen bagpipers?
Shock of all shocks, you can’t freely assert rights that are fine in an open space, when you live in a city. I have no problem with making playing with a Boomerang illegal in NYC. Suburbs? No problem. The drummers don’t give a damn about “management of coexisting in a City”. They just want to impose on your ear drum – for 8 hours. Suggest they take it out to wide open spaces and you might get drummed yourself.
The Drummers and their supporters are insensitive to realities of City life and co-existing. They’re actually very selfish.
If anyone tries to justify those drummers rights to impose their expression for 8 hours in your ear – ask them to do it in the context of City life & co-existing. They don’t care about the rights & interest of those impacted by their activity.
Think about it, if those drummers were really organized and cared about anyone other than themeselves, they would conduct a study, a sort of environment impact report of their continuous drumming. Don’t hold your breath, they don’t care.
Defenders of them? Please, don’t wrap yourself in ethnicity or a “public space” park, as if thousands of people are not immediately adjacent to their sh*t. The sidewalk is a public space but I can’t walk up in front of anyone’s brownstone and blast my bagpipe for 8 hours without the police cracking down on me or getting shot.
Grow up with your arguments and come to the real world of co-existing. I plan on calling the Police ten minutes after they start their crap. I am also going to document this nonsense and illegal violation of law.
The Drummers are little different than that kids on their ATV & dirt bikes, both want the right to violate law in Harlem.
Steve
July 2, 2007
AC is right (#8) — it’s all about compromise.
i live on the west side of the park where the drumming provides a nice backdrop to my saturday activities. but when i walk within a block of the drummers, the melodius (or is that cacoponous?) sound of their drum circle becomes overwhelming after 30 minutes of listening. i can’t imagine what it must be like to tolerate that noise (and YES, it is noise after several hours of nonstop drumming) for an entire afternoon.
since the music seems to be muted at a distance, why can’t the circle find sanctuary in the center of the park where everyone can enjoy the performance without directly adversely affecting any single group of people? sounds fair to me.
c’mon folks, the park is here to be enjoyed by ALL. not by a group of organized individuals who feel they have the right to dictate their musical preference to everyone else.
Community Member
July 2, 2007
The remark made by #9 was extremely condescending and I don’t appreciate the insinuation that my friend is a figment of my imagination. Perhaps it is a figment of your imagination that you actually know which complex he lives in and that you have spoken to the many residents that live in said complex. How about getting out of the house on a nice Saturday, like the drummers, and do something you enjoy other than grumbling about what brings pleasure to them one day a week? That also sounds reasonable to me.
New Anon
July 2, 2007
#7, I can’t help but think that your “friend” is a figment of a very active imagination. I’ve talked to people in that building (and visited) and while almost everybody I’ve talked to who lives there seems to agree that the drummers are a cultural institution, they just can’t take 8 to 9 hours of the constant beating of the drums on their doorstep. I actually think they want to reach a compromise instead of driving them out altogether. But everyone I’ve met there says that they just want a peaceful Saturday afternoon and evening.
Though I’m kind of used to it in the background, I don’t really spend a lot of time near the drummers on Saturday because it’s so loud. What I’m worried about is the police officers and the parks patrol being able to communicate with each other in the event that anything ever happens (like the shooting near the bathroom). It’s just so loud, I’m not sure they can hear each other on their walkies. That’s a public safety issue.
Maybe if they moved down to the SE part of the park (where nobody lives), that would be a solution.
ac
July 2, 2007
well im so glad we all agree on this message board!!! compromise is the answer!!!!
too bad i doubt it will play out like that on the street. the drummers are notorious for refusing to cut back the hours to a more reasonable 3 or 4 and the building owners (all but your poetry writing friend i guess) have started to call the cops.
Community Member
July 2, 2007
My friend’s co-op is right across from the drummers and he enjoys them. We asked if they bothered him and he said no. A group of us spent every Saturday in his home writing poetry with the drums as a backdrop. Even with the window opened they drums were not intrusive and if the A/C was running you couldn’t hear them at all!
Who in the world is home for 8 hours straight on a beautiful Saturday? Especially in the summertime? Even if you were home your A/C or fan pretty much drowns out any “irritating drumming.”)
I can admit that limiting the drumming to a few hours is a reasonable solution, however we know from past history that any enforcement of this law isn’t going to be done properly…see here for what is more apt to happen: http://www.villagevoice.com/music/0025,sotc,15821,22.html
I just want to clarify, it isn’t a black/white issue, it has become an attack on all people of color — Native American and Hawaiian drummers across the US. People of non-white cultures have drummed for centuries. How about showing some respect for the culture of those who have been colonized and had much of their culture and language stripped. How about we stop accepting the dictates of those with the means to get things done. Why is it now that they are going to enforce the “stop the drum movement” if supposedly people have been complaining about it for years? “Drum circles thrive all over the country, at community centers, in churches and public parks, and in an increasing number of hospitals and wellness centers.
The appeal isn’t hard to identify, says Christine Stevens, music therapist and director of Health Rhythms for Remo Drums. “We all have an innate sense of rhythm, and when you tap that, it makes people feel more alive, productive. It’s like they get a voice and feel connections to one another. A lot happens when you don’t use words.” -Diane Cole
Drumming is culture…an art that has been passed down. These are not just people out there randomly making noise for the sake of making noise. Many of those drummers are master drummers.
Opal Palmer Adisa:
“the tongue is a drum a drum a drum the tongue is a drum and drumming has been outlawed no drumming allowed except on Sundays in a few public parks between the hours of 2 and 4 P.M. the tongue is a drum a drum a drum and drumming has been forbidden especially if you’re non-white especially if you’re female the drum is forbidden these are not stories to scare i tell many lost their tongues when they insisted on speaking when they defied authority when they demanded their rights the tongue is a drum and drumming isn’t allowed not anymore not even on Sundays in the park but my tongue is an ancient telephone it doesn’t take orders very well it keeps learning new languages it creates new syntaxes the tongue is a drum and the drum is an ancient art form that reaches all the people no matter the distance no matter the interference the tongue insists on being a drum and the drum sounds budum-budum loud continuous echoing throughout the distance the tongue is a drum a drum budum budum budum.”
There are also scientific studies that compare the vibrations in acoustics and drums compared to the other noise pollution we suffer from in cities…what about car horns, synthesized music, the new construction going up around us? All of those rhythms are unnatural…what about my neighbors fighting or yelling at their kids? The dog down the hall who won’t shut up? The churches behind that have service on Sundays? These are more pressing than a group of drummers enjoying the park and tapping into their spirits.
Sure, we can limit it to a few hours a week but just make sure no one is being hurt in the process.
Hugo
July 2, 2007
in this case, those who live in the park area are the ones who should decide what the best resolution is as they are the ones that have to deal with the noise problem. it seems no one is really out to eliminate anything per se. there should a time limit or something where everyone can benefit. this park is not like washington sq park where all you have is the college/university population. there are residences surrounding the area and they must be taken into consideration
. i personally am a bachata and merengue fanatic but if I have someone going at it right where i live for 8 hours straight (unless it’s some kind of festival event), you best believe i’m calling them out!
ac
July 2, 2007
#3–so it sounds like you’ve been to enjoy those drummers on a saturday afternoon. did you stay for all 8 hours of it?
i really think there has to be a compromise to make everyone happy…or at least happier.
they can play–but do they have to play for 8 hours in the exact same spot every weekend? im sure you can enjoy the drumming and appreciate it and love it—and still see why 8 hours every single saturday is maybe more than should be reasonable to force people to live with.
i think that people who do not live on the park cant possibly know what it’s like to have to live with that for that many hours in a row.
i just dont understand why it has to be one or the other. cant they be there but for 3 hours? how is that attacking the culture of harlem?
i have passion for this issue cause my mother lives on the north east corner of the park and they had them moved years ago…she goes out there now on saturdays and enjoys the drumming and the crowd, and then after an hour or two, she goes home, where she doesnt have to have it crammed into her brain for the entire day.
anon
July 2, 2007
i know the people who live in other parts of the park have been trying to get rid of them forever. they move from spot to spot and then deal with the next batch of angry neighbors wherever they land next. this time they landed in front of an empty lot—unitl a year ago when new condos opened. now they’re playing race and getting angry cause it’s mostly white people living there—but how can you expect people to live with that kind of noise every weekend all day???? that’s not right. they should rotate or take turns. i think everyone is all for the drummers, they’re awesome! no one wants them gone, shut up, shut down. but everyone can agree, that’s too much for too long to expect people to live with. take turns or limit how long you play for. you have to be considerate to other human beings trying to live life.
Anonymous
July 2, 2007
This is very disturbing to me. Those drummers have been there for years and are a vital part of that community’s vibe. The drums are part of certain people’s culture and to take that away is too much like having another part of African culture stripped away…the little bit people have been able to retain or tried to regain. I find the comments in this thread disturbing and will be on the side of the drummers if anyone dares try to oust them from that park. It is a public space. Should it be in their homes instead? What next? Telling people they have to whisper in the park and kids can’t squeal with joy as they play? Come on…let the community retain some culture! If it’s not at 6AM on a Saturday morning or disturbing your regular routine then leave them be for Christ sake! It will be a sad day in Harlem when there are no vestiges of the culture that once vibrated the neighborhood and dictated the rhythm of its people. I’m disgusted.
Anonymous
July 2, 2007
Well the new noise laws are in effect today and its about time people take responsibility for the noise they produce.
I’ve already contacted my local Police Dept. and told them I expect them to crack down on the basketball court boom box, full DJ set up with GIANT speakers I know I can expect on the weekends. I then CC’ed it to every politician in the chain right up to the mayor letting that Police Captain know he’s on blast if he does not enforce the law.
I don’t expect him to, and I expect to document a Police Dept. choosing to not enforce the new law. I know that crowd at Mr. Morris Park and their constant non-stop drumming. That complies with “illegal” as of today if they play for more than ten minutes, any chance they will play for more than ten minutes?
I saw pressure your local police department to enforce the law, be creative, make a video documentary with a timer, document the drummers, police letting them do it, place it on YOUTUBE and with the names of the top brass, send a mass email out to everyone in the City, make your own Micheal Moore type of film, would be hilarious.
I’m all for the drummers mind you, however that park has an amphi theater,why don’t they get a permit to play there for a limited time period, like a 2 hour concert once every 2 weeks or so? Reasonable solution to me.
anon
July 2, 2007
yeah-mr softee has to turn off his music, but 20 drummers can bang away for 8 hours straight every single saturday in marcus garvey park.